mettech Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Let's hope Ford leapfrog instead of catch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Ford GM and Toyota have all kept out of mass production of Electric Vehicles until the timing was right, the indications we've seen in the past month or so signal that the race is on and it could be Tesla that struggles because they don't have the deep pockets and manufacturing foot print of the big three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Doesn't Toyota have 25% of Tesla? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) Nope, Toyota sold all its shares in Tesla back in June. IMO, that's another red flag... Edited October 22, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I predict that full BEVs will remain niches/second vehicles until we can recharge a 200 mile range in 15 minutes or less. Otherwise it will be PHEVs. None of this is rocket science. It just comes down to the economics of selling enough vehicles to support a BEV specific platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I think you’re absolutely correct. Talking to my engineering friend, the big challenge, as always, are batteries. There’s no silver bullet here, everybody will be using the same basic batteries, maybe even built by the same supplier. Losing battery capacity, because of cold weather, is a real issue. The 300 mile range Tesla likes to throw around only happens at 75 degrees. At 0 degrees, capacity can drop over 40%. And recharge time will still be a major issue for years to come. I was struck by how out-of-it I felt. I can talk camshaft grinds, bore and stroke, compression ratio’s, fuel injection etc. but am absolutely lost when it comes to electric cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) I predict that full BEVs will remain niches/second vehicles until we can recharge a 200 mile range in 15 minutes or less. Otherwise it will be PHEVs. None of this is rocket science. It just comes down to the economics of selling enough vehicles to support a BEV specific platform. Yep i agree for once with you..and yes virginia when you are a 1 wonder product company like ford (aka f150) ya prolly aint goin find much luv in investor circles..plus the fact you cant seem to be able to build a small car in michigan..one glitch in the system and its 1973 all over again for ford Edited October 22, 2017 by snooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 I wonder product company? Geez. Way to completely ignore Fusion, Edge, Explorer, Expedition, Transit, Transit Connect, Super Duty and Mustang. All are doing just fine within their segments even with some recent dropoffs. And all some of them need is a new top hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) Products like F150 and SDs are responsible for the hoard of cash because so many buyers still want them. Most companies would kill to have such a slam dunk revenue raiser and profit earner. And akirby is right, Ford's Utilities are still doing fine Edited October 22, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 The perception amongst the high rollers on wall street is directly proportional to the current stock price...truth is i pretty much agree ford has product beyond f150,but perception amongst those who matter is far different than what we agree upon here...explain to me how ford stock has languished in a bull market thsa has not been seen like this since rayguns tax cuts...ford stock is just pathetic...there are going to be plant closures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 there are going to be plant closures *citation needed* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Except “those who matter” doesn’t really include anybody on Wall St. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 And stock price doesn’t drive plant closures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 And stock price doesn’t drive plant closures. Well I would not argue your point except when the "street" is looking for "bold moves" it always seems to me the new sheriff in town is immediately going to "kick ass and take names" in the form of ...." getting back to our core business, reducing head count, streamlining the manufacturing mix blah blah. all the usual buzz words. And Hackett has been around long enough now, and nothing has happened with the stock-after all, isn't that what cooked Fields' goose? Now having said that, Ford should be in good shape with respect to plant utilization right??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) Now having said that, Ford should be in good shape with respect to plant utilization right??? They still have available capacity at Oakville and FRAP (always have), they have available capacity at MAP, and I don't expect both the Ranger and Bronco to fill it. KCAP 2 (Transit side) can add a shift if they need to. Louisville, KCAP 1 (F-150) and DTP are at capacity, they can't go any faster. I think Chicago is in the same boat. KTP is probably at capacity or will be once the Expy/Navi launch is a little further down the road. Both Mexican plants now have available capacity, with Cuactitlian's future still being somewhat of a question mark once the Fiesta dies. I have no clue about Ohio. They probably have capacity but options are probably pretty limited based on what they currently build. Edited October 23, 2017 by fuzzymoomoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) Except those who matter doesnt really include anybody on Wall St. In an alternative bizarro world that would be something to behold..but in reality the street operates in its own reality and universe....what they think and do does matter...what irks me more than anything is the inability of dearborn to build a small car in michigan.....only had since 1973 to get it right and it still seems they cant figure it out... Edited October 23, 2017 by snooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Why are you so hung up on that? Oh wait, nevermind. Unions and such. None of us deserve to be employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 In an alternative bizarro world that would be something to behold..but in reality the street operates in its own reality and universe....what they think and do does matter...what irks me more than anything is the inability of dearborn to build a small car in michigan.....only had since 1973 to get it right and it still seems they cant figure it out... You keep missing the point. It doesn’t matter what Wall Street thinks. Investors have no power. Fields was not let go because of the stock price. He was let go because he didn’t invest in products, he hoarded too much cash waiting on a downturn that never happened and put Ford way behind the competition in several important markets with too much cost cutting. And he pissed off Silicon Valley. Stock price was just the last straw/excuse and was a symptom of the aforementioned missteps. When Mulally was running Ford and the stock price was languishing it wasn’t a problem because he was leading the company in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Well I would not argue your point except when the "street" is looking for "bold moves" it always seems to me the new sheriff in town is immediately going to "kick ass and take names" in the form of ...." getting back to our core business, reducing head count, streamlining the manufacturing mix blah blah. all the usual buzz words. And Hackett has been around long enough now, and nothing has happened with the stock-after all, isn't that what cooked Fields' goose? Now having said that, Ford should be in good shape with respect to plant utilization right??? Except the new Sheriff is being brought in to shore up old and missing products as much as to cut costs. They need more production, not less and they do not have any excess plant capacity. They’re still expanding FRAP. They’re retooling MAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Except the new Sheriff is being brought in to shore up old and missing products as much as to cut costs. They need more production, not less and they do not have any excess plant capacity. They’re still expanding FRAP. They’re retooling MAP. Ok-Like I said.." I would not argue your point except..." and by the way, do you think Hackett is the guy to "shore up missing products"? I just can't get over his glowing credentials- office furniture where a large percentage of new "stuff" seems to be abandoned everytime a office building changes hands, and a stint as an AD. And as for his infatuation with Silicon Valley, I guess I'm just too old school. As I've said before-the only winners in the next 10-20 years will be the lawyers IMO. Crash avoidance systems? Excellent-bring 'em on. Just saw a video of 2018 150 where side view mirror picks up "Oscar Meyermobile". And the industry will learn at a measured pace. Great- self driving cars? Yes I know- its what Hi tech says we MUST have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Except the new Sheriff is being brought in to shore up old and missing products as much as to cut costs. They need more production, not less and they do not have any excess plant capacity. Theyre still expanding FRAP. Theyre retooling MAP. But as the market currently sits, yes they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) Just confirming production last month Hermosillo Fusion...............12,252 MKZ....................2,851 Flat Rock Mustang.............4,368 Continental...........254 Chicago Explorer..............27,132 Taurus..................3,163 Oakville AP Edge...................13,023 MKX......................3,244 Flex.......................2,064 MKT.........................239 KCAP (SUV) Transit..................8.132 KCAP (T) F 150....................28,797 Dearborn F150.....................33,053 F / Chassis.............1.730 Louisville Escape..................31,778 MKC........................4,546 Kentucky Super Duty.............30,065 Expedition...................406 Navigator....................180 Ohio (Avon Lake) E Series...................5,210 Super Duty..................511 Med Duty....................599 Cuautitlan Fiesta........................5,006 Edit, and one more... Michigan AP Focus......................11,777 C-Max.......................1.921 Edited October 23, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Where's MAP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Why are you so hung up on that? Oh wait, nevermind. Unions and such. None of us deserve to be employed. Nah...lotta uaw jobs to be had if we could f'in figure out how to build small cars in detroit for a profit....mually tried with the foci... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) Nah...lotta uaw jobs to be had if we could f'in figure out how to build small cars in detroit for a profit....mually tried with the foci... Like Toyota and other Asian car makers, Ford has Focus plants around the world. There's just no way to build a compact car in Detroit that starts at $17K with the most popular version a few thousand higher especially when buyers then expect incentives between $2K and $4K... Ford's people tried to explain this to AM but he wasn't listening. Sure similar cars are made in German and Thailand but the difference is richer product mix in Germany and $9/day labor in Thailand.I won't even begin with China... So the reason why we don't see a compact in Detroit is two fold, 1. The cost of establishing a production plan (~$500 M) and the cost of labor to operate it 2. The opportunity cost of redirecting that $500M to production with a better chance of higher profit while sourcing new Focus models from existing retooled plants in China and Germany.. Edited October 23, 2017 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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