Self-Driving Uber Car Kills Arizona Pedestrian

[rperez817]

46 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:

You didn’t think Uber would be held responsible did you? 

 

The law firm representing the family of the victim settled with Uber out of court a couple weeks after the incident and Uber's legal responsibility was considered "resolved" at that point. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe/2018/03/29/uber-settlement-self-driving-car-death-arizona/469278002/

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, Joe771476 said:

School children need to be taught from the first day at school to look both ways when crossing streets, driveways etc. and never ASSume that the car is going to stop!  

 

Yes sir Joe771476, but will hobos who are high on meth like the victim in this particular incident consistently heed that advice?

Edited September 18, 2020 by rperez817

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Here is the real problem:  Have you seen a "LOOK BOTH WAYS" sign at any crosswalks lately?  NO!!!!  Young people and the population in general have been conditioned that cars must stop for pedestrians.  Whether they are in a crosswalk or not shouldn't matter!  Pedestrians must be responsible.  Yeah they may be right, but they'll be dead right if they don't look!  The reason is  -- in my opinion -- because lawyers can't sue pedestrians (they have no insurance) so they put the burden on the motorist who does!  You get it?  Money!  School children need to be taught from the first day at school to look both ways when crossing streets, driveways etc. and never ASSume that the car is going to stop!  I've seen kids step off a school bus and walk across the front of the bus and run across the street without looking, assuming all cars will stop.  I don't know if there is a protocol that has the bus driver say, "Ok, you can cross" or not, but that can change in the blink of an eye!  

 

Agreed!   And it irks me to no end when the news reports a pedestrian was hit and killed by a hit and run driver while crossing a busy street AT NIGHT in the dark and not in a crosswalk or intersection.   And while the hit and run is certainly on the driver, the actual accident probably isn't.   But the person's family and the news all make it sound like the driver was responsible for their death and not just the hit and run part.

 

NOBODY WANTS ANY PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING.

[Trailhiker]

39 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

 And it irks me to no end when the news reports a pedestrian was hit and killed by a hit and run driver while crossing a busy street AT NIGHT in the dark and not in a crosswalk or intersection.  

 

The deer around here do it all the time! And where there is one, there are a few more just trying to decide if they want to cross, jump out right in front of you, or wait.

[akirby]

3 minutes ago, Trailhiker said:

 

The deer around here do it all the time! And where there is one, there are a few more just trying to decide if they want to cross, jump out right in front of you, or wait.

And do the deer ever take personal responsibility?  Of course not!  

[fuzzymoomoo]

56 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

Agreed!   And it irks me to no end when the news reports a pedestrian was hit and killed by a hit and run driver while crossing a busy street AT NIGHT in the dark and not in a crosswalk or intersection.   And while the hit and run is certainly on the driver, the actual accident probably isn't.   But the person's family and the news all make it sound like the driver was responsible for their death and not just the hit and run part.

 

NOBODY WANTS ANY PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING.

Don't forget usually wearing dark clothing for extra non-visibility 

[fuzzymoomoo]

11 minutes ago, akirby said:

And do the deer ever take personal responsibility?  Of course not!  

I know right!?!? They NEVER cross at the light! 

[akirby]

3 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I know right!?!? They NEVER cross at the light! 

 

Or at the signs.  I mean, why put signs out there if the deer aren't going to read them?

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

Or at the signs.  I mean, why put signs out there if the deer aren't going to read them?

 

I know this was posted in jest, but a few years back, a woman in northern Michigan asked on social media why deer didn't cross the highway at "deer crossing" signs.  She was serious too.

[fuzzymoomoo]

14 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

I know this was posted in jest, but a few years back, a woman in northern Michigan asked on social media why deer didn't cross the highway at "deer crossing" signs.  She was serious too.

There's a famous audio clip from a radio show from some woman making that same argument. Could have just been a radio bit but I don't think it was. I would look it up but I'm at a hospital right now waiting for my wife to be induced. 

[jasonj80]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

 

Agreed!   And it irks me to no end when the news reports a pedestrian was hit and killed by a hit and run driver while crossing a busy street AT NIGHT in the dark and not in a crosswalk or intersection.   And while the hit and run is certainly on the driver, the actual accident probably isn't.   But the person's family and the news all make it sound like the driver was responsible for their death and not just the hit and run part.

What’s sad is it’s better to hit and run if you've been drinking than to stick around even one or two beers. Turn yourself in the next day after you watch the news and realize it wasn’t an animal. Also in Detroit you’re likely to be attacked by a mob so keep driving and turn yourself in later at the station.  

[mackinaw]

28 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

There's a famous audio clip from a radio show from some woman making that same argument. Could have just been a radio bit but I don't think it was. I would look it up but I'm at a hospital right now waiting for my wife to be induced. 

 

Congrats Fuzzy.  

[jpd80]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

 

Agreed!   And it irks me to no end when the news reports a pedestrian was hit and killed by a hit and run driver while crossing a busy street AT NIGHT in the dark and not in a crosswalk or intersection.   And while the hit and run is certainly on the driver, the actual accident probably isn't.   But the person's family and the news all make it sound like the driver was responsible for their death and not just the hit and run part.

 

NOBODY WANTS ANY PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING. 

Correct but I'd say that there's responsibilities on both sides but should

the pedestrian pay with their lives for making a mistake?

The answer depends on whether a vigilant driver sees the pedestrian in time

to stop or slow enough to reduce injury. When an autonomous vehicle sees a 

pedestrian and fails to react up to six seconds before impact, its natural to

ask more questions about the actual circumstances.

 

Specifically to this case,

the software in the Uber saw the pedestrian begin crossing up to six seconds before the impact

the software didn't react

the "observer" was watching TV while they were supposed to be vigilant

the pedestrian crossed at a known danger spot at night 

there was more light at the crash sight than the video portrayed.

Uber technicians had de-sensitised  the Volvo detection software.

 

This was a troubling case because it goes a little deeper than people crossing

at dangerous locations, I know that some pedestrians can be arrogant enough 

to assume that the driver has seen them and will slow to avoid hitting them......

A dangerous assumption if someone is trialling a flawed technology on an

unsuspecting public.

 

And then there's this,

If this is a known black spot them maybe the curb area should have been fenced

to stop pedestrians crossing in the first place. how much would 15/200 yards

of fencing cost to prevent a disaster by changing the behaviour of pedestrians

who persist in crossing there.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by jpd80

[probowler]

I'm no fan of autonomous vehicles, but we also need to be logical and consistent. Plenty of people are killed by human drivers too. A few accidents while tragic, is no reason to give up on the idea.

However, when you look at the actual problems with self-driving cars and the systems required to make them operate... I don't know how anyone can realistically expect this technology to work anytime soon.

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

What’s sad is it’s better to hit and run if you've been drinking than to stick around even one or two beers. Turn yourself in the next day after you watch the news and realize it wasn’t an animal. Also in Detroit you’re likely to be attacked by a mob so keep driving and turn yourself in later at the station.  

In other countries, it's considered callous disregard for the injured person

and punishable by imprisonment even if the  person survives.

I can understand the fear of mob retaliation and that may be part of a justified

explanation to not stop but not immediately dialling 911 for ambulance would

play against that.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by jpd80

[akirby]

11 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Correct but I'd say that there's responsibilities on both sides but should

the pedestrian pay with their lives for making a mistake?

The answer depends on whether a vigilant driver sees the pedestrian in time

to stop or slow enough to reduce injury. 

This point was not about the Uber case, just a more general observation.

 

If I try to hang on the edge of a building with no safety line and fall to my death that’s 100% on me.

If I’m driving way too fast on the street, lose control and hit a pole going 120 and kill myself, that’s 100% on me.

 

People die everyday taking unnecessary risks.  Crossing a busy highway at night not wearing reflective clothing and not seeing an oncoming car with lights on is pure negligence.  I’m sick of people not putting the blame on the victim when it’s clearly they’re fault just because you feel sorry for them.

[akirby]

6 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

In other countries, it's considered callous disregard for the injured person

and punishable by imprisonment even if the  person survives.

I can understand the fear of mob retaliation and that may be part of a justified

explanation to not stop but not immediately dialling 911 for ambulance would

play against that.

 

There is a case happening right now where a high level politician hit and killed a man at night.  He claims he thought he hit a deer, so he stopped but couldn’t find anything with his cell phone flashlight.  Claims he drove to the sheriffs house and reported it they came back and looked again but found nothing.  At daylight they find the man dead in the ditch.

 

If the story is true he did nothing wrong.  But he could have been drinking and the sheriff is helping him cover it up.  You can’t say it was callous disregard if he did in fact stop and got the sheriff.   
 

If you hit someone and don’t stop that’s leaving the scene of an accident.  And if the person dies because you didn’t stop to help them you could be charged with manslaughter (tough to prove though).

[jpd80]

2 minutes ago, akirby said:

There is a case happening right now where a high level politician hit and killed a man at night.  He claims he thought he hit a deer, so he stopped but couldn’t find anything with his cell phone flashlight.  Claims he drove to the sheriffs house and reported it they came back and looked again but found nothing.  At daylight they find the man dead in the ditch.

 

If the story is true he did nothing wrong.  But he could have been drinking and the sheriff is helping him cover it up.  You can’t say it was callous disregard if he did in fact stop and got the sheriff.   
 

If you hit someone and don’t stop that’s leaving the scene of an accident.  And if the person dies because you didn’t stop to help them you could be charged with manslaughter (tough to prove though).

Maybe it was the pedestrians fault, blame them and everyone is off the hook.

[jpd80]

22 minutes ago, akirby said:

This point was not about the Uber case, just a more general observation.

 

If I try to hang on the edge of a building with no safety line and fall to my death that’s 100% on me.

If I’m driving way too fast on the street, lose control and hit a pole going 120 and kill myself, that’s 100% on me.

 

People die everyday taking unnecessary risks.  Crossing a busy highway at night not wearing reflective clothing and not seeing an oncoming car with lights on is pure negligence.  I’m sick of people not putting the blame on the victim when it’s clearly they’re fault just because you feel sorry for them.

It's not that, it's considering every case as individual, you can't lump everything together

and generalise. Areas considered dangerous to cross should be fenced or a bridge put in.

 

The danger with blaming the victim is that authorities don't have to look further

with control measures to stop certain unacceptable behaviour like crossing

at dangerous locations, particularly when lots of people do it at the same spot.

 

And yes, we gotta pay millions to stop stupids doing stupid thing because

that's what responsible adults do, protecting others too dumb to live..

Edited September 19, 2020 by jpd80

[probowler]

8 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

It's not that, it's considering every case as individual, you can't lump everything together

and generalise. Areas considered dangerous to cross should be fenced or a bridge put in.

 

The danger with blaming the victim is that authorities don't have to look further

with control measures to stop certain unacceptable behaviour like crossing

at dangerous locations.

 

And yes, we gotta pay millions to stop stupids doing stupid thing because

that's what responsible adults do, protecting others too dumb to live..

 

It's not the governments job to protect people from making stupid decisions. Respectfully, Eff using my tax dollars to build your safety fences.  I say let Darwin sort it out.

[jpd80]

9 minutes ago, probowler said:

 

It's not the governments job to protect people from making stupid decisions. Respectfully, Eff using my tax dollars to build your safety fences.  I say let Darwin sort it out.

Respectfully, I'm not in the US and from what I see, your dollars will not be spent protecting others.

It's not in the nature of  your governments, federal or local to behave like that, the would sooner

waste that money on getting re-elected than spending it on the community, yes?

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by jpd80

[akirby]

Not sure where we went off course.  All I said was people need to take responsibility for their own actions and not blame others.

[jpd80]

9 minutes ago, akirby said:

Not sure where we went off course.  All I said was people need to take responsibility for their own actions and not blame others.

And I apologise for taking us down the rabbit hole, it was wrong of me to assume

that your words meant more than they did ......I take full responsibility for derailing the thread.

Edited September 19, 2020 by jpd80

[mustang let back]

Another reason why self driving cars are STUPID!!!

[SoonerLS]

On 9/18/2020 at 7:14 PM, jpd80 said:

Uber technicians had de-sensitised  the Volvo detection software.

 

It has been a few months since I heard an analysis of the event, but my recollection is that they had "de-tuned" Volvo's software because their software was supposed to take over, but something went wrong and it didn't. It seems like it was something that was in development, but was considered to be mitigated by the safety driver, or maybe it wasn't supposed to be live in that test vehicle.

 

Interestingly, a few years ago, Volvo said they would accept liability for Volvo autonomous vehicles. Betcha they're breathing a collective sigh of relief right about now that the folks at Uber monkeyed with their software.