mustangchief Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 1 hour ago, msm859 said: Wow tough crowd. I realize I am in the minority, but I do not understand the opposition to constructive criticism. Especially when the facts appear that Ford could have put in a battery about 30% larger with the additional costs being completely covered by the increased tax credit and then they could have been advertising the Aviator with 550 hp! Maybe it is a space issue, maybe Ford is paying a whole lot more than industry standard per 1kWh on batteries, maybe they cannot get the larger batteries. But it does raise a legitimate question. Even going for the "performance" angle instead of fuel economy leads to the exact same question. The Porsche which is smaller and lighter has a larger battery and an electric motor that is 33% more powerful. Real world testing/reviews will be interesting. The world of facts may not be as you see them. I'm sure if your vision was achievable, they would have done it. But lets say they could have made your day, maybe they are budgeting their credits. GM and Tesla are in phase out. In a business case, it is more important to sell more vehicles than keep a few customers happy. You will see lots of moaning also as the GT's won't be any where close to easy to get. A loaded GT and a loaded Reserve are only separated by $1600 after tax rebates. Watch for the dreaded ADM when dealers realize these are hard to get. Other factors could be weight which effects towing and fuel economy, there has to be a balance and you have to sandbag a new model for competition sake. They also could be keeping a price point gap between it and the Gator. Unless you wear a suit and tie at the Glass House everyday and have a private office, you can only guess why they did what they did. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 The problem is that you didn’t just say “it doesn’t meet my requirements” - you said it was a failure and that’s a ridiculous statement. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolScoop Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) My dream Aviator GT would ditch that wimpy battery altogether and replace it with a 1.21 Gigawatt Mr. Fusion ☢️ Edited August 15, 2019 by CoolScoop 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY93SHO Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 I see in the TFL video that he did not like the 30-way seats. Interesting. Some love the things and some, like him, can never quite get comfortable in them and is annoyed by the seams and ridges necessary to make the various adjustable components of the seat work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangchief Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 On 8/16/2019 at 5:06 PM, Gurgeh said: I see in the TFL video that he did not like the 30-way seats. Interesting. Some love the things and some, like him, can never quite get comfortable in them and is annoyed by the seams and ridges necessary to make the various adjustable components of the seat work. It really depends on your body type, there is not one kind fits all seats. I always shop my travel car for seats first, if your not comfortable in the saddle, the trip will be twice as long. The other thing is, you really need to sit in them for a while and get them adjusted to what suits you. I spent the first day getting them perfect, on a lot of stops I had to hit the memory so I would not search any longer. Day 2 was pure bliss. I wish the Lincoln Way app had a way to lock your settings so someone else like the wife doesn't erase what does take a minute to set up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 30 minutes ago, mustangchief said: It really depends on your body type, there is not one kind fits all seats. I always shop my travel car for seats first, if your not comfortable in the saddle, the trip will be twice as long. The other thing is, you really need to sit in them for a while and get them adjusted to what suits you. I spent the first day getting them perfect, on a lot of stops I had to hit the memory so I would not search any longer. Day 2 was pure bliss. I wish the Lincoln Way app had a way to lock your settings so someone else like the wife doesn't erase what does take a minute to set up. Maybe I am confused.. why not setup each person's position in memory and then save that to the fob (if you are not referring to your cell phone as your key). Position 1 on my ST is saved to my wife's fob, position 2 is saved to mine everything changes to the setting of whoever is driving automatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcoBoost Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 1 hour ago, blwnsmoke said: Maybe I am confused.. why not setup each person's position in memory and then save that to the fob (if you are not referring to your cell phone as your key). Position 1 on my ST is saved to my wife's fob, position 2 is saved to mine everything changes to the setting of whoever is driving automatically. I did that on our MKZ but if I'm not mistaken, they key itself only recalls if it is set to recall memory 1 or 2 but does not 'remember' the actual seat position. So if somebody messes up the memory setting in the vehicle, the key won't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Just now, EcoBoost said: I did that on our MKZ but if I'm not mistaken, they key itself only recalls if it is set to recall memory 1 or 2 but does not 'remember' the actual seat position. So if somebody messes up the memory setting in the vehicle, the key won't help. Why would anyone mess up the memory settings? Once you save memory 1 2 and 3 they don’t change unless you press and hold the memory button again. Anyone can change the seat position but then you only have to touch 1 2 or 3 again or use the right fob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 19 minutes ago, EcoBoost said: I did that on our MKZ but if I'm not mistaken, they key itself only recalls if it is set to recall memory 1 or 2 but does not 'remember' the actual seat position. So if somebody messes up the memory setting in the vehicle, the key won't help. Exactly what akirby said. Set the seat, press and hold memory 1 for 2 seconds till you hear it beeps. As long as someone doesnt repeat that, it wont lose the memory of what was programmed. You could always press memory 1 and it will return everything back to the way you saved it. Adding the fob to memory 1 prevents you from having to press the button. There is no reason for anyone to screw around with saving new positions and losing the previous memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangchief Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, akirby said: Why would anyone mess up the memory settings? Once you save memory 1 2 and 3 they don’t change unless you press and hold the memory button again. Anyone can change the seat position but then you only have to touch 1 2 or 3 again or use the right fob. You haven't met my wife...lol That's why I need a lock out. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcoBoost Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, mustangchief said: You haven't met my wife...lol That's why I need a lock out. Yeah, the Lincoln is my mother's car. Too funny you just posted that. She initially thought you need to press 'M' and either '1,2 or 3' to RECALL a memory-position - and there goes your permanent setting - LOL!? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 The seat complaint is silly. My Lincoln dealer, that is one of the largest in the US, has to order everything they can with the 30-way seats. Once they came out, they can hardly sell a Lincoln without it (in the trims that it is available in). Seats that have a lot of adjustment take time to find what works best for you. Unless you have the car for a couple of weeks, you may not get it dialed into your preferences. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Couple of points: First, 18 miles EV range is an estimate like the original horsepower and torque numbers. We know how that turned out. Second, the estimate is for EPA range. There is no requirement in the US for PHEV to meet any EV-only range to get emission offset credit so there is no incentive for Ford to tune the software to extend EV only range at the expense of overall energy efficiency or battery longivity. In another jurisdiction, testing methods can (and will) yield different EV-only range without any changes. WLTP EV range is typically 10 to 15% better than EPA so 18 mile EPA could mean 20 miles in WLTP before Ford tweak the software.Ford can easily change the software to extend EV range. In fact, the choice of lower power motor than some competitor like Porsche is probably a design decision to deliver 50km EV only range in China. Third, to further expand on #2, performance and range are the two sides of the same coin in an EV. Ford can dial up one and dial down the other, and vice versa. It's a decision to can be changed from market to market, and for different applications. Fourth, the beauty of PHEV and EV is battery's physical size is not the sole limiting factor in range (storage size). Ford may have engineered in future power increases once more energy dense cells are available to meet Ford's price point. Tesla Model S hasn't been resigned since it went on sale but battery storage size (measured in kilowatt hours) have increased roughly 30% since it came out. Tesla has mostly given the extra kw/h to extract better performance but as noted in #3, they could have also kept the performance identical and just extended the range. The fact that they went for performance tells you something about the vast majority of people buying expensive EVs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 1 hour ago, bzcat said: Couple of points: First, 18 miles EV range is an estimate like the original horsepower and torque numbers. We know how that turned out. Second, the estimate is for EPA range. There is no requirement in the US for PHEV to meet any EV-only range to get emission offset credit so there is no incentive for Ford to tune the software to extend EV only range at the expense of overall energy efficiency or battery longivity. In another jurisdiction, testing methods can (and will) yield different EV-only range without any changes. WLTP EV range is typically 10 to 15% better than EPA so 18 mile EPA could mean 20 miles in WLTP before Ford tweak the software.Ford can easily change the software to extend EV range. In fact, the choice of lower power motor than some competitor like Porsche is probably a design decision to deliver 50km EV only range in China. Third, to further expand on #2, performance and range are the two sides of the same coin in an EV. Ford can dial up one and dial down the other, and vice versa. It's a decision to can be changed from market to market, and for different applications. Fourth, the beauty of PHEV and EV is battery's physical size is not the sole limiting factor in range (storage size). Ford may have engineered in future power increases once more energy dense cells are available to meet Ford's price point. Tesla Model S hasn't been resigned since it went on sale but battery storage size (measured in kilowatt hours) have increased roughly 30% since it came out. Tesla has mostly given the extra kw/h to extract better performance but as noted in #3, they could have also kept the performance identical and just extended the range. The fact that they went for performance tells you something about the vast majority of people buying expensive EVs. Good analysis. The bold statement probably concerns me the most. I have always said I wanted a "reasonable" performance in EV mode. The first thing I will do before a test drive is put it in EV only mode. It won't matter what the range is if the acceleration is unacceptable. I am hoping the high instant torque will allow reasonable stop and go city driving. Porsche went with 134 hp electric motor on a smaller/lighter vehicle. 101 hp in the Aviator may be a struggle. I agree that performance sells and these prices the buyers will demand it - but if it doesn't have it in EV mode I predict there will a backlash in reviews from the EV crowd - see reviews on the Range Rover Sport PHEV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Complaining about EV only acceleration is like having a handsaw and circular saw in your toolbox and complaining that it takes too long to cut a board in half with the hand saw. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcoBoost Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, akirby said: Complaining about EV only acceleration is like having a handsaw and circular saw in your toolbox and complaining that it takes too long to cut a board in half with the hand saw. LOL!? Funny, but accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolScoop Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 18 minutes ago, akirby said: Complaining about EV only acceleration is like having a handsaw and circular saw in your toolbox and complaining that it takes too long to cut a board in half with the hand saw. ...while holding both saws! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msm859 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 1 hour ago, akirby said: Complaining about EV only acceleration is like having a handsaw and circular saw in your toolbox and complaining that it takes too long to cut a board in half with the hand saw. Hmm, sound like a syllogism to me - perhaps a false one. However, if you are trying to make that analysis a better one would be to make the circular saw cordless - powered by a battery - then I would be asking what is the voltage on the battery - and if it would be fast enough - otherwise what is the point of a cordless saw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcoBoost Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 It's after 12. Where are the reviews?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangchief Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, EcoBoost said: It's after 12. Where are the reviews?? They are up https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/reviews/2020-lincoln-aviator-preview/ https://www.autoblog.com/2019/08/20/2020-lincoln-aviator-first-drive/ https://www.cars.com/articles/2020-lincoln-aviator-first-drive-a-surprisingly-sporty-luxury-suv-407920/ https://www.motortrend.com/cars/lincoln/aviator/2020/2020-lincoln-aviator-luxury-crossover-review/?wc_mid=4035:17289&wc_rid=4035:1510353&_wcsid=3E228BCCD3366521126522EAB2C8C7A97A15494D3BFB1D7F https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2019/08/20/2020-lincoln-aviator-suv-raises-bar-luxury-features/2042865001/ https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a28750909/2020-lincoln-aviator-drive/ Edited August 20, 2019 by mustangchief added a few links 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 8 hours ago, msm859 said: However, if you are trying to make that analysis a better one would be to make the circular saw cordless - powered by a battery - then I would be asking what is the voltage on the battery - and if it would be fast enough - otherwise what is the point of a cordless saw? Nobody asks how fast a cordless saw cuts - they only ask how many cuts can I make on a single battery charge because that's the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 15 hours ago, akirby said: Complaining about EV only acceleration is like having a handsaw and circular saw in your toolbox and complaining that it takes too long to cut a board in half with the hand saw. The electrification on the Aviator was designed to provide a significant power and performance boost to the already-strong boosted V6, not to be an all-electric. It will be a dog in EV-only mode and no one in their right mind would enjoy driving it this way for any length of time, whether it be 18 miles (which will feel like 17 more than desirable) or 50, unless they had to do it because they ran out of gas. But that is not what it was designed for. Really looking forward to the First Drive reviews on the Grand Touring that will be out on Thursday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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