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rmc523

2020 Aviator Official power numbers revealed - higher than previously announced

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41 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

I'm glad you know the exact performance specs and EV range of Aviator.

Maybe they were able to meet those requirements with the setup they have developed?

Well I am certainly going to wait for the reviews on how the total system works, but I am  not presently optimistic based on the specs. Maybe Ford is using similar electric motors as Tesla which seem to be more efficient than Audi and Jaguar.  Maybe their software and integration is better than Range Rover.  But physics is a larger part of the equation.

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8 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:

I am guessing when I say this, so there is a chance you might be right but......I think you are way off on thinking this won't be have the performance rush of power. This will be the quickest Lincoln to date. Actually, it will be the fastest CUV Ford has ever created. If you can get over not having the battery that you want (not sure if you can), think about that for a second.

We’ve had that discussion already.  He wants the super high performance of a full blown BEV in electric only mode with a 50 mile range and an ICE backup for longer trips.

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11 minutes ago, akirby said:

We’ve had that discussion already.  He wants the super high performance of a full blown BEV in electric only mode with a 50 mile range and an ICE backup for longer trips.

Not exactly.  I want "adequate" performance in EV mode, so that the "EV mode" option is real and a 50 "km" range or @ 31 miles.

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29 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:

I am guessing when I say this, so there is a chance you might be right but......I think you are way off on thinking this won't be have the performance rush of power. This will be the quickest Lincoln to date. Actually, it will be the fastest CUV Ford has ever created. If you can get over not having the battery that you want (not sure if you can), think about that for a second.

I am not worried about the rush of power with these numbers - that is not my priority in a SUV.  This is a car for my wife, 90% of the time around town and the rest on  trips. Give me the same hp - just add 50 more to the electric side and a larger battery.  My first car was a '65 Mustang Fastback GT add a couple of Firebird 400's a couple more Mustangs - the last 1 a convertible Cobra Mustang and and now on my 4th Corvette and will be buying the new C8 next year so I am all in favor of the rush of power.  But I am not going to drag race an SUV.  Wife currently has a 2017 Explorer Platinum 95% of the time it has enough power at 365 hp - add a 150 hp electric motor to that and it would scream - and be able to drive around town in EV mode only with no problem.  We will see how it does in real world testing, but 0-60 will not be my main selling point.

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RRS PHEV has 2.0 I4 just like Volvo XC90 T8. They are not competitors for Aviator GT. There is also a size difference - Lincoln is much bigger than the other two.

RRS and XC90 are using I4 PHEV drivetrain to try to match the performance of a conventional V6. Aviator is using V6 PHEV drivetrain to match the performance of a conventional V8. The closest competitor to Aviator is Porsche Cayenne e-hybrid, which has a similar drivetrain (however, Cayenne is midsize and lacks 7 seats option), or Mercedes GLS 550 (4.7 V8), and the upcoming BMW X7 xDrive 50i (4.4 V8).

 

 

 

Edited by bzcat

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https://insideevs.com/news/343757/ford-tourneo-custom-plug-in-hybrid-van-to-launch-in-late-2019/

The Aviator appears to have the exact same 13.6 kWh battery as this new 8 passenger Ford PHEV Van for Europe.  And the range is, wait for it... 50 km (31 miles)!!!  Also, the battery for this van and the Aviator will have a slightly higher capacity than the Explorer PHEV for Europe, which is 13.1 kwh.

Edited by CoolScoop

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39 minutes ago, bzcat said:

RRS PHEV has 2.0 I4 just like Volvo XC90 T8. They are not competitors for Aviator GT. There is also a size difference - Lincoln is much bigger than the other two.

RRS and XC90 are using I4 PHEV drivetrain to try to match the performance of a conventional V6. Aviator is using V6 PHEV drivetrain to match the performance of a conventional V8. The closest competitor to Aviator is Porsche Cayenne e-hybrid, which has a similar drivetrain (however, Cayenne is midsize and lacks 7 seats option), or Mercedes GLS 550 (4.7 V8), and the upcoming BMW X7 xDrive 50i (4.4 V8).

 

 

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/08/12/2020-porsche-cayenne-turbo-s-e-hybrid-coupe-plus-e-hybrid-coupe/

For reference:

Turbo S E-hybrid: 670-hp (541+134 electric) /663 lb-ft

Regular E-hybrid: 455-hp / 516-hp (335+134) / 516 lb-ft

Porsche today unleashes three new 2020 Cayenne models, two of which will take their places at the top of the standard and coupe ranges. The Cayenne Turbo S E-Hybrid and its Coupe sibling put Porsche's V8-fueled hybridsystem on the top step, while the new Cayenne E-Hybrid Coupe puts the raked-roof spin on the existing standard Cayenne E-Hybrid. The Turbo S models are the most powerful Cayenne variants ever built, producing a total system output of 670 horsepower and 663 pound-feet of torque from a 4.0-liter 541-hp twin-turbo V8  aided by a 134-hp electric motor. That's seven horses down on the Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid with the same powertrain, but 37 more foot-pounds of twist. They both get from zero to 60 mph in 3.6 seconds and are limited to 183 mph.

The 2020 Porsche Cayenne E-Hybrid Coupe works with the same 3.0-liter turbocharged V6 and e-motor as in the Cayenne E-Hybrid, putting out an identical 455 hp and 516 lb-ft of torque combined. The dash to 60 mph takes 4.7 seconds, and top speed is limited to 157 mph.

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1 hour ago, CoolScoop said:

https://insideevs.com/news/343757/ford-tourneo-custom-plug-in-hybrid-van-to-launch-in-late-2019/

The Aviator appears to have the exact same 13.6 kWh battery as this new 8 passenger Ford PHEV Van for Europe.  And the range is, wait for it... 50 km (31 miles)!!!  Also, the battery for this van and the Aviator will have a slightly higher capacity than the Explorer PHEV for Europe, which is 13.1 kwh.

Interesting find.  If you read the comments section you will see a lot of complaints about the battery being too small.  Another question is  that 50 km on the Euro cycle or EPA?  EPA is tougher/more realistic.

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21 minutes ago, msm859 said:

Interesting find.  If you read the comments section you will see a lot of complaints about the battery being too small.  Another question is  that 50 km on the Euro cycle or EPA?  EPA is tougher/more realistic.

The 50 km doesn't matter in the US or Europe, it only matters on the export version sent to China.  To me the hybrid is just a small bonus.  I drove the regular for an entire weekend on all types of roads.  It blew my wives Q5 Quattro away by a very large gap IMO.  It cost 10K more, and the features and ride in the Aviator was well worth it.  When I jumped back in my F-150 contour seats, I almost thought they changed them with the oil, the difference was that pronounced.  THe tax rebate will be 6K or 6.1K depending on how the IRS does the decimal rounding.  The difference in price between a loaded GT and a loaded regular after the rebate is $2,125.  The GT is a no brainer for the better gas mileage and fast fun factor.  20-25 or 30 Miles in EV does not matter to me.  If it mattered, I'd wait a year or two.  

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It will be interesting to see what the final ratings on the electric motor are and what RPM they are achieving peak torque and power on the combined system.  Either way looks like a winner.  20 to 25 miles EV range would make my daily commute gas free.  Figuring about 4600 miles a year commuting at my current 18 mpg on the '12 Explorer, and figuring $2.50 gallon for gas and I am looking at around $630 per year saved in gas.  Factoring in $0.10/kWh it would break even over 8 year life.  But that doesn't include any benefits on city MPG or non-commuting driving.

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Porsche Cayenne E-hybrid: 455 hp / 516 lb-ft  MSRP $81,100

BMW X7 50i: 456 hp / 479 lb-ft MSRP $92,600

Mercedes GLS550: 449 hp / 516 lb-ft MSRP $95,750

Lincoln Aviator GT: 494 hp / 630 lb-ft MSRP $68,800 (Black Label GT is $87,800)

Most power, most torque, lowest starting MSRP... do we need a jury to deliberate?

 

Edited by bzcat

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43 minutes ago, bzcat said:

Porsche Cayenne E-hybrid: 455 hp / 516 lb-ft  MSRP $81,100

BMW X7 50i: 456 hp / 479 lb-ft MSRP $92,600

Mercedes GLS550: 449 hp / 516 lb-ft MSRP $95,750

Lincoln Aviator GT: 494 hp / 630 lb-ft MSRP $68,800 (Black Label GT is $87,800)

Most power, most torque, lowest starting MSRP... do we need a jury to deliberate?

 

Yes, and it will never be unanimous.  The American companies have to do it better and for less. I am on my 4th Corvette.  Best bang for the buck but it does not have the "pedigree" of  the makes you mentioned.  Compare the new C8 against cars costing 2-3+ times more and it will beat them in all those specs.

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According to the IRS: "the credit is equal to $2,500 plus, for a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with at least 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, $417, plus an additional $417 for each kilowatt hour of battery capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The total amount of the credit allowed for a vehicle is limited to $7,500."

So the minimum battery capacity for the full rebate is 16 kwh... 2500 + 417 + 417(16 kwh- 5 kwh) = 7500

The Aviator rebate should then be 2500 + 417 + 417(13.6 kwh - 5 kwh) = 6503, rounded to 6500

 

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1 hour ago, CoolScoop said:

According to the IRS: "the credit is equal to $2,500 plus, for a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with at least 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, $417, plus an additional $417 for each kilowatt hour of battery capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The total amount of the credit allowed for a vehicle is limited to $7,500."

So the minimum battery capacity for the full rebate is 16 kwh... 2500 + 417 + 417(16 kwh- 5 kwh) = 7500

The Aviator rebate should then be 2500 + 417 + 417(13.6 kwh - 5 kwh) = 6503, rounded to 6500

 

 

Which  means Ford could have put in an extra 3 kWh (or more) of battery at a cost of @$600 more - add $200 profit and the car costs less because of the extra $1,000 tax credit.

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/electric-cars-battery-life-materials-cost 

And may have also then been able to put. in a higher hp electric motor  without worrying about. it draining too fast.

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Damn Ford for not making the Aviator exactly to MY specifications! 

Hey man, Homer Simpson has the car you are looking for.  It's everything to everyone!

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Quote

The 2020 Porsche Cayenne E-Hybrid Coupe works with the same 3.0-liter turbocharged V6 and e-motor as in the Cayenne E-Hybrid, putting out an identical 455 hp and 516 lb-ft of torque combined. The dash to 60 mph takes 4.7 seconds, and top speed is limited to 157 mph

Hmm, wondering if there is any reason why an Aviator with 494 hp and 630 lb-ft of torque should not match that time...

Granted, the Avi is a bit bigger and probably heavier but after all, comes with 39 additional hp and 114 lb-ft of torque.

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1 hour ago, EcoBoost said:

Hmm, wondering if there is any reason why an Aviator with 494 hp and 630 lb-ft of torque should not match that time...

Granted, the Avi is a bit bigger and probably heavier but after all, comes with 39 additional hp and 114 lb-ft of torque.

It probably will - or come close.  The electric motor in the Porsche has 33 more hp which is probably more important for 0-60 although torque of the electric motors is also important and we don't know those specs.

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3 hours ago, jcartwright99 said:

Damn Ford for not making the Aviator exactly to MY specifications! 

Hey man, Homer Simpson has the car you are looking for.  It's everything to everyone!

Wow tough crowd.  I realize I am in the minority, but I do not understand the opposition to constructive criticism.   Especially when the facts appear that Ford could have put in a battery about 30% larger with the additional costs being completely covered by the increased tax credit and then they could have been advertising the Aviator with 550 hp!  Maybe it is a space issue, maybe Ford is paying a whole lot more than industry standard per 1kWh  on batteries, maybe they cannot get the larger batteries.  But it does raise a legitimate question.  Even going for the "performance" angle instead of fuel economy leads to the exact same question.  The Porsche which is smaller and lighter has a larger battery and an electric motor that is 33% more powerful.  Real world testing/reviews will be interesting.

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26 minutes ago, msm859 said:

Wow tough crowd.  I realize I am in the minority, but I do not understand the opposition to constructive criticism.   Especially when the facts appear that Ford could have put in a battery about 30% larger with the additional costs being completely covered by the increased tax credit and then they could have been advertising the Aviator with 550 hp!  Maybe it is a space issue, maybe Ford is paying a whole lot more than industry standard per 1kWh  on batteries, maybe they cannot get the larger batteries.  But it does raise a legitimate question.  Even going for the "performance" angle instead of fuel economy leads to the exact same question.  The Porsche which is smaller and lighter has a larger battery and an electric motor that is 33% more powerful.  Real world testing/reviews will be interesting.

There are no facts that say they could have put in a 30% larger battery.  They may have been able too, but they also may have been limited by the available space under the floor.  Every design comes with trade-off's.  What we do know is that they designed the batter and motor to fit within the existing structure without changing any interior volume or any significant reduction in fuel tank size.  Perhaps wait a few years until the full BEV 3 row SUV arrives.  If I decide to go with the Aviator it will be the GT.

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https://www.tflcar.com/2019/08/yes-the-2020-lincoln-aviator-hybrid-has-nearly-500-horsepower-and-more-torque-than-the-new-corvette-stingray/

The Aviator GT might only go 18 miles on just the battery, but it has more power than the new mid engine Corvette Stingray... and it cant even get out of the garage on just the battery!!!

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1 hour ago, msm859 said:

Wow tough crowd.  I realize I am in the minority, but I do not understand the opposition to constructive criticism.   Especially when the facts appear that Ford could have put in a battery about 30% larger with the additional costs being completely covered by the increased tax credit and then they could have been advertising the Aviator with 550 hp!  Maybe it is a space issue, maybe Ford is paying a whole lot more than industry standard per 1kWh  on batteries, maybe they cannot get the larger batteries.  But it does raise a legitimate question.  Even going for the "performance" angle instead of fuel economy leads to the exact same question.  The Porsche which is smaller and lighter has a larger battery and an electric motor that is 33% more powerful.  Real world testing/reviews will be interesting.

It's not that we object to constructive criticism. It just seems like you expected them to "Make it your way". You have a rationale of why it should of been that way based on your specific needs. I can understand disappointment to a degree that doesn't check all of YOUR boxes, but Ford didn't just build this for you. They made a business decision on data that you and I aren't privy to (price, demographics, engineering, etc).  

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