rmc523 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 I saw some posts here and/or elsewhere that mentioned no leather and no heated/cooled seats. I find that incredibly hard to believe, and would be incredibly stupid. At that pricepoint (at least the upper ones), it'd be inexcusable, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Roland said: A Panamera is nothing more than a 4 door 911? How does that work with the engine at the opposite end? No, it's not the same at all. First, Porsche had an order of magnitude greater brand equity than Ford (because Ford destroys every brand they build). Second, Porsche didn't slap an iconic model name on a completely unrelated model in a totally different segment. They didn't call their sedan, CUV, or electric vehicle a 911 Carrera S, C, or E. They generally didn't even mention the 911 in their marketing. Instead they traded on the Porsche brand and emphasized how these new segment entries brought Porsche brand values to those segments. Even the biggest Porsche sports car purists couldn't deny that Porsche delivered on those values and in the end they did nothing to sully their iconic brands. Unlike Ford who has now burned the Mustang brand. A Mustang is not an SUV and an SUV is not a Mustang. If you survey the automotive forums around the Internet this is widely being laughed at or viewed with horror. Even the people who express interest in the new model commonly do so in spite of the branding and not because of it. Some of those who like the whole thing admit to liking it purely in a trollish sense. I think what A Kirby was referring to was the Panamera is 911 influenced ...which it most definitely is, as THIS is to the Mustang...I have zero issue with Mustang being mentioned in any form or fashion regarding this vehicle...amazing what people get their panties in a wad about lately....no doubt this vehicle will spark a Street protest somewhere and sales will be boycotted solely on the basis of its affiliation with perhaps Fords most iconic brand name... Edited November 15, 2019 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
averagengineer Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, rmc523 said: I saw some posts here and/or elsewhere that mentioned no leather and no heated/cooled seats. I find that incredibly hard to believe, and would be incredibly stupid. At that pricepoint (at least the upper ones), it'd be inexcusable, IMO. this is false Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novanglus Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, averagengineer said: Hard disagree. They use fake plastic leather EVERYWHERE. Deleted the cluster for cost saving (cheap), fake wood trim, cheap piano black painted plastic in center console, Those wheel aero covers look quite cheap, don't get me started on the paint. Look up pain quality issues and you'll be shocked to see how thin Tesla paint is. The fact that they dont evnn bother to paint areas that are covered speaks a lot. https://www.thedrive.com/tech/29257/finnish-tesla-model-3-inspection-reveals-soft-thin-under-spec-paint ...as an owner of a M3P, I can confirm Tesla ain’t great at painting. If I could make a list of things I would tell Elon to fix, it would be paint (though my car was flawless, the interior of the fender is only partly painted and it is a bit thin) and upscale the center console finish. The console itself is solid and the mechanism for open/closing, etc is tight and quality, unlike some creaky garbage hinges on other manufacturers (my wife’s $73k MSRP CT6 comes to mind), and the standard floor mats are utter garbage. But, the interior isn’t cheap. It is tight and solid. Also, it drives amazingly and isn’t just about 0-60, like haters like to claim. It can boogie down. The tech is top notch. It is a rocket sled. It is efficient. It is even fun. I’d wager the Mach is some several hundred pounds heavier, if not a full half ton. The 3 is the Lotus Elise of sport EVs right now compared to the fatties out there. So, don't underestimate your competition. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 1 minute ago, averagengineer said: this is false thankyou....people need to wait till Ford releases full package breakdowns before jumping to conclusions... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novanglus Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 hours ago, akirby said: It is in the ballpark though compared to model 3 except for the GT. But I think that's because Tesla is using more expensive motors and maybe larger battery packs (also more expensive) and underpricing the vehicle. Ford doesn't need to sell these at a loss. And Ford gets the full $7500 credit. ...actually using a smaller pack. They just have better components and software. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 1 minute ago, novanglus said: ...as an owner of a M3P, I can confirm Tesla ain’t great at painting. If I could make a list of things I would tell Elon to fix, it would be paint (though my car was flawless, the interior of the fender is only partly painted and it is a bit thin) and upscale the center console finish. The console itself is solid and the mechanism for open/closing, etc is tight and quality, unlike some creaky garbage hinges on other manufacturers (my wife’s $73k MSRP CT6 comes to mind), and the standard floor mats are utter garbage. But, the interior isn’t cheap. It is tight and solid. Also, it drives amazingly and isn’t just about 0-60, like haters like to claim. It can boogie down. The tech is top notch. It is a rocket sled. It is efficient. It is even fun. I’d wager the Mach is some several hundred pounds heavier, if not a full half ton. The 3 is the Lotus Elise of sport EVs right now compared to the fatties out there. So, don't underestimate your competition. that gos both ways...don't OVERESTIMATE your own drive....the 3 really isn't THAT special...let alone, what was the expression..."cutting edge"...its a good car with warts, just like everything else on the road...damn Tesla groupies....lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, averagengineer said: this is false Good, that's why I said it doesn't make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, novanglus said: ...actually using a smaller pack. They just have better components and software. how do you actually KNOW that prior to a vehicles release?....like a list of Tesla software issues?....and that's not to say the Mach will be issue free....but to tout what you aqre incinuating BEFORE the cars release is pure speculation, Edited November 15, 2019 by Deanh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMSA-XJR9 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, Roland said: A Panamera is nothing more than a 4 door 911? How does that work with the engine at the opposite end? No, it's not the same at all. First, Porsche had an order of magnitude greater brand equity than Ford (because Ford destroys every brand they build). Second, Porsche didn't slap an iconic model name on a completely unrelated model in a totally different segment. They didn't call their sedan, CUV, or electric vehicle a 911 Carrera S, C, or E. They generally didn't even mention the 911 in their marketing. Instead they traded on the Porsche brand and emphasized how these new segment entries brought Porsche brand values to those segments. Even the biggest Porsche sports car purists couldn't deny that Porsche delivered on those values and in the end they did nothing to sully their iconic brands. Unlike Ford who has now burned the Mustang brand. A Mustang is not an SUV and an SUV is not a Mustang. If you survey the automotive forums around the Internet this is widely being laughed at or viewed with horror. Even the people who express interest in the new model commonly do so in spite of the branding and not because of it. Some of those who like the whole thing admit to liking it purely in a trollish sense. Well, I'm a Mach (Mock?!) 1 owner and it doesn't bother me at all . . . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 1 minute ago, novanglus said: ...as an owner of a M3P, I can confirm Tesla ain’t great at painting. If I could make a list of things I would tell Elon to fix, it would be paint (though my car was flawless, the interior of the fender is only partly painted and it is a bit thin) and upscale the center console finish. The console itself is solid and the mechanism for open/closing, etc is tight and quality, unlike some creaky garbage hinges on other manufacturers (my wife’s $73k MSRP CT6 comes to mind), and the standard floor mats are utter garbage. But, the interior isn’t cheap. It is tight and solid. Also, it drives amazingly and isn’t just about 0-60, like haters like to claim. It can boogie down. The tech is top notch. It is a rocket sled. It is efficient. It is even fun. I’d wager the Mach is some several hundred pounds heavier, if not a full half ton. The 3 is the Lotus Elise of sport EVs right now compared to the fatties out there. So, don't underestimate your competition. Thank you for sharing your impressions novanglus sir. Pretty much what I've found with Tesla too. The solid black paint on my Model S is OK in terms of consistency and overall quality, but both my 2019 Ranger and the 2017 Jaguar XF I had previously have better paint jobs. I also wish that the doors shut with a more solid sound. Beyond that, the Model S is impressive. It's one of the few cars designed in the U.S. by a U.S. company that's respected all over the world. Tesla built their reputation, and their lead in the BEV market, by building a better car. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Deanh said: just be patient is all I can say...I was told they will be 12 months away.,.... That actually works well for my schedule. It will depend on leasing options- I don’t usually lease, but think it makes sense for BEVs, especially an all new one from Ford. Bronco could also change my plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novanglus Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Deanh said: that gos both ways...don't OVERESTIMATE your own drive....the 3 really isn't THAT special...let alone, what was the expression..."cutting edge"...its a good car with warts, just like everything else on the road...damn Tesla groupies....lol... ...yeah, damn guys who actually buy and drive the things they’re talking about and have actual experience instead of just participating in internet dick waving. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 10 minutes ago, novanglus said: They just have better components and software. And better systems integration. Sandy Munro marveled at the engineering of the Model 3's electronics modules when he did a teardown analysis. He said the system integration was at a level far ahead anything he's seen in the automotive industry and closer to what you'd find in the aerospace industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, novanglus said: ...yeah, damn guys who actually buy and drive the things they’re talking about and have actual experience instead of just participating in internet dick waving. Im not the one stating the Tesla 3 is the holy grail...or pre-judging a vehicle yet to be released as potentially inferior.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Just now, Deanh said: Im not the one stating the Tesla 3 is the holy grail...or pre-judging a vehicle yet to be released as potentially inferior.... Have you had an opportunity to test drive a Model 3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, rperez817 said: And better systems integration. Sandy Munro marveled at the engineering of the Model 3's electronics modules when he did a teardown analysis. He said the system integration was at a level far ahead anything he's seen in the automotive industry and closer to what you'd find in the aerospace industry. and things never progress right?...hey...Im not stating Teslas a piece of crap...they aren't...but to blatantly state they are the Holy Grail as such, when their issues are well documented is a little over the top.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novanglus Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Deanh said: how do you actually KNOW that prior to a vehicles release?....like a list of Tesla software issues?....and that's not to say the Mach will be issue free....but to tout what you aqre incinuating BEFORE the cars release is pure speculation, ...I’m making a deduction based on likely charge rate and miles of range in 10 minutes. If the Ford has a 150kWh max charge rate but can only get 47mi in 10minutes, it is probably using a bigger pack (lower efficiency) as an M3 at 150kWh adds 75-80miles at that rate. (It’s also possible the Mach maxes a 120kWh or less max rate, but that would be less likely). Edited November 15, 2019 by novanglus 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 The way I look at is that Tesla is really pushing the entire industry to create a better vehicle and think way outside of the box. They deserve a lot of credit, but also have a lot of challenges. Most of the things I've read about the 3 mention the paint quality but also like novanglus say it is best in class with driving dynamics. And I will give him credit, since novanglus at least has one and can comment from first hand experience. One thing to remember is this is Ford's first jump into this arena and I'm sure they will get better and grow the market. I actually like the way the vehicle looks and don't mind the minimalist interior-as long as it is up to standards for a $60k vehicle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novanglus Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Deanh said: Im not the one stating the Tesla 3 is the holy grail...or pre-judging a vehicle yet to be released as potentially inferior.... I never stated it was the holy grail. I stated negative issues and positive ones. You’re being overly defensive. I’m merely sharing my experiences. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Have you had an opportunity to test drive a Model 3? 2 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Have you had an opportunity to test drive a Model 3? Ive been in them yes, impressive with some glaring fit and finish faults...have you driven the Mach-e for comparative purposes?....its sure being pre-judged...ironically by Tesla owners...stay grounded gents, wayyyy too sensitive...critique the E when when its actually released... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, novanglus said: ...I’m making a deduction based on likely charge rate and miles of range in 10 minutes. If the Ford has a 150kWh max charge rate but can only get 47mi in 10minutes, it is probably using a bigger pack, as an M3 at 150kWh adds 75-80miles at that rate. (It’s also possible the Mach maxes a 120kWh or less max rate, but that would be less likely). that I cannot answer as specs haven't been released....yet...for all I know the E could ( but I doubt it ) not have the range compared with the 3...then again, the E's competitor hasn't been released by Tesla yet either...please keep that in mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Deanh said: Ive been in them yes, impressive with some glaring fit and finish faults...have you driven the Mach-e for comparative purposes?....its sure being pre-judged...ironically by Tesla owners...stay grounded gents, wayyyy too sensitive...critique the E when when its actually released... So that will be in about 12-18 months! Why the hell would we wait that long, when somebody throws up a post that Tesla's doomed!!! LOL..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, kyle said: So that will be in about 12-18 months! Why the hell would we wait that long, when somebody throws up a post that Tesla's doomed!!! LOL..... 12 months apparently Kyle....much like the 3's release deposits will be taken...but apparently its 45000 nationwide...and Teslas lack of profitability is also well documented...how will they make out when their niche market gets infiltrated and market share gets eaten into?...remember...they have all their eggs in but one basket...the competitions portfolios are way more sustainable from a profitability standpoint. Edited November 15, 2019 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Deanh said: have you driven the Mach-e for comparative purposes?....its sure being pre-judged...ironically by Tesla owners...stay grounded gents, wayyyy too sensitive...critique the E when when its actually released... No sir, I haven't driven a Mustang Mach-E, though I sure wish I could. I am reserving one on Sunday and will patiently wait for delivery in late 2020. Who is "pre-judging" the Mustang Mach-E on this thread? Sure isn't novanglus or rperez817. There were some comments in the thread regarding the leaked photo about the Mustang Mach-E's design, but that's not pre-judging either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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