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Wheeling

More on Aviator GT

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12 minutes ago, Wheeling said:

 

Uh....I am going to just hazard a guess here and say they were hoping for more efficiency? Maybe the Green Car Report isn't the best site to look at reviews if you want a performance luxury PHEV.

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6 hours ago, jcartwright99 said:

 

Uh....I am going to just hazard a guess here and say they were hoping for more efficiency? Maybe the Green Car Report isn't the best site to look at reviews if you want a performance luxury PHEV.

I would disagree.  There is a number (I suggest it is growing) of people who want a performance luxury PHEV that ALSO has some green credentials.  Lincoln shot for A's on exterior and interior style, tech features and performance.  As to "green" they were okay getting a C grade.   To get an A would have been simple - increase battery size to 17kWh+ which would have been a net zero increase in costs because of the additional tax credit And use a minimum 150 hp electric motor.  Some have hypothesized that could not have been done because of size constraints, however since this is a brand new platform designed to have a PHEV from the beginning than if true, that would be a huge design shortfall.

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13 minutes ago, msm859 said:

I would disagree.  There is a number (I suggest it is growing) of people who want a performance luxury PHEV that ALSO has some green credentials.  Lincoln shot for A's on exterior and interior style, tech features and performance.  As to "green" they were okay getting a C grade.   To get an A would have been simple - increase battery size to 17kWh+ which would have been a net zero increase in costs because of the additional tax credit And use a minimum 150 hp electric motor.  Some have hypothesized that could not have been done because of size constraints, however since this is a brand new platform designed to have a PHEV from the beginning than if true, that would be a huge design shortfall.

Are you on the Volvo sites complaining about their 18 mile all electric hybrid too, or just here?

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45 minutes ago, msm859 said:

I would disagree.  There is a number (I suggest it is growing) of people who want a performance luxury PHEV that ALSO has some green credentials.  Lincoln shot for A's on exterior and interior style, tech features and performance.  As to "green" they were okay getting a C grade.   To get an A would have been simple - increase battery size to 17kWh+ which would have been a net zero increase in costs because of the additional tax credit And use a minimum 150 hp electric motor.  Some have hypothesized that could not have been done because of size constraints, however since this is a brand new platform designed to have a PHEV from the beginning than if true, that would be a huge design shortfall.

 

The 10 speed tranny was already in production when the electric motor was added and they didn’t want to compromise interior room or exterior design just to give you and a few other greenies a few extra electric miles.   Get over it already and go buy something else.

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1 hour ago, MY93SHO said:

Are you on the Volvo sites complaining about their 18 mile all electric hybrid too, or just here?

No, just here.  Not presently interested in buying a Volvo - have never bought one. (although the 18 mile range (now 20) is something that was a turn off to me on the XC90)  I am however interested in buying a Ford - have bought 10 in the last 25 years - 2 Mustangs, 5 F350 crewcabs and 3 Explorers.  Not sure why anyone is against constructive criticism.  I have said I will wait until the real world results come out, but it comes as no surprise to me that others would be criticizing the EV range/power.  I suspect everyone here wants Ford to succeed.  They should not be afraid to listen to potential buyers.

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My three cents, this writer has no idea what he just reviewed.  He compared it to a Sonata for goodness sake.  Yes, my 280 pound golf cart is smooth and will run on a single battery for 36 holes.  It will not hold 7 people, massage my posterior, keep mosquitoes out, pamper me with audiophile sound all the while putting my wife to sleep so she does not bother me.  Another news flash Ford/Lincoln pivoted from the V8 a long time ago.   

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11 hours ago, msm859 said:

No, just here.  Not presently interested in buying a Volvo - have never bought one. (although the 18 mile range (now 20) is something that was a turn off to me on the XC90)  I am however interested in buying a Ford - have bought 10 in the last 25 years - 2 Mustangs, 5 F350 crewcabs and 3 Explorers.  Not sure why anyone is against constructive criticism.  I have said I will wait until the real world results come out, but it comes as no surprise to me that others would be criticizing the EV range/power.  I suspect everyone here wants Ford to succeed.  They should not be afraid to listen to potential buyers.

 

They are listening to potential buyers, just not you or green car report.  It’s like complaining about fuel mileage on a GT500.  

 

There is also a so a big difference between saying you’re personally disappointed and saying they made the wrong business decision.

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On 8/30/2019 at 6:56 PM, msm859 said:

I would disagree.  There is a number (I suggest it is growing) of people who want a performance luxury PHEV that ALSO has some green credentials.  Lincoln shot for A's on exterior and interior style, tech features and performance.  As to "green" they were okay getting a C grade.   To get an A would have been simple - increase battery size to 17kWh+ which would have been a net zero increase in costs because of the additional tax credit And use a minimum 150 hp electric motor.  Some have hypothesized that could not have been done because of size constraints, however since this is a brand new platform designed to have a PHEV from the beginning than if true, that would be a huge design shortfall.

You seem to think that increasing the battery capacity by 25% or more and motor size by 50% or more would be an insignificant increase in the physical size, weight and price for these components when in reality the differences are absolutely huge.  Batteries are heavy and electric motors weigh even more... so let's put it in perspective for the Aviator.  Since the electric and gas motors both go through the transmission we won't count the weight of the drive train. So let's compare the weight of the PRIMARY gas system to the weight of the SECONDARY electric system... the engine weighs 440 pounds and the fuel tank with 18 gallons of gas weighs approx 180 pounds, putting the total for the gas system at 620 pounds.  But the GT weighs 781 pounds more than the AWD Aviator, the battery weighs 298 pounds and the electric motor plus the batteries liquid heating/cooling system add another 483 pounds.  So the Aviators hybrid system already weighs 161 pounds MORE than the primary gas system and you can't understand why it isn't even bigger.  What you keep wishing for would add hundreds of pounds, take away interior space and add thousands of dollars to the Grand Touring... but fortunately, the Lincoln design team did their homework and made all the right choices and compromises to give us the ULTIMATE luxury performance SUV!!!

Edited by CoolScoop

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7 hours ago, CoolScoop said:

You seem to think that increasing the battery capacity by 25% or more and motor size by 50% or more would be an insignificant increase in the physical size, weight and price for these components when in reality the differences are absolutely huge.  Batteries are heavy and electric motors weigh even more... so let's put it in perspective for the Aviator.  Since the electric and gas motors both go through the transmission we won't count the weight of the drive train. So let's compare the weight of the PRIMARY gas system to the weight of the SECONDARY electric system... the engine weighs 440 pounds and the fuel tank with 18 gallons of gas weighs approx 180 pounds, putting the total for the gas system at 620 pounds.  But the GT weighs 781 pounds more than the AWD Aviator, the battery weighs 298 pounds and the electric motor plus the batteries liquid heating/cooling system add another 483 pounds.  So the Aviators hybrid system already weighs 161 pounds MORE than the primary gas system and you can't understand why it isn't even bigger.  What you keep wishing for would add hundreds of pounds, take away interior space and add thousands of dollars to the Grand Touring... but fortunately, the Lincoln design team did their homework and made all the right choices and compromises to give us the ULTIMATE luxury performance SUV!!!

 

...and in a few years they will make an entirely different set of right choices and deliver an electrified mid-sized luxury crossover with, reportedly, a battery-only range of over 300 miles with uncompromised performance. But then, it will be an all-electric BEV without any ICE at all.

 

Lincoln could have increased the electric-only range of the Aviator by, for instance, putting in a much lighter 4-cylinder engine to compensate for the heavier batteries and larger electric engine. Except then it would be a traditional hybrid that focuses on fuel economy and doesn't provide particularly great performance in either hybrid or battery-only mode. There are lots of those kinds of vehicles around, and they are fine for what they are. That just wasn't the kind of performance-oriented hybrid Lincoln was trying to build.

Edited by Gurgeh

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12 hours ago, CoolScoop said:

You seem to think that increasing the battery capacity by 25% or more and motor size by 50% or more would be an insignificant increase in the physical size, weight and price for these components when in reality the differences are absolutely huge.  Batteries are heavy and electric motors weigh even more... so let's put it in perspective for the Aviator.  Since the electric and gas motors both go through the transmission we won't count the weight of the drive train. So let's compare the weight of the PRIMARY gas system to the weight of the SECONDARY electric system... the engine weighs 440 pounds and the fuel tank with 18 gallons of gas weighs approx 180 pounds, putting the total for the gas system at 620 pounds.  But the GT weighs 781 pounds more than the AWD Aviator, the battery weighs 298 pounds and the electric motor plus the batteries liquid heating/cooling system add another 483 pounds.  So the Aviators hybrid system already weighs 161 pounds MORE than the primary gas system and you can't understand why it isn't even bigger.  What you keep wishing for would add hundreds of pounds, take away interior space and add thousands of dollars to the Grand Touring... but fortunately, the Lincoln design team did their homework and made all the right choices and compromises to give us the ULTIMATE luxury performance SUV!!!

Not sure if your numbers are correct.  Maybe Ford should have checked out the  Porsche Cayenne PHEV or Chrysler Pacifica PHEV when doing their homework.  Porsche has a 134 hp electric motor and 14.1 kWh battery added total 582 lbs.  Chrysler has 2 electric motors 114 hp + 84 hp an a 17 kWh battery and added 657 lbs. so not sure what else Ford got for 781 lbs.  I would have a few questions for the Lincoln design team about their choices and compromises.

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The weight check numbers are a little off, because the GT comes standard with many extra features not accounted for in the basic weight of the AWD like the panoramic roof which adds a hundred pounds.  You won't be able to compare anything until you have equally equipped cars.  It's more than a battery and electric motor on the base.  If you would like to speak with the Lincoln design team, go to a big show and talk with them.  Be courteous and they'll chat with you for a minute, argue about their designs and they will bid you a nice day and farewell.  

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On 8/30/2019 at 8:05 PM, msm859 said:

No, just here.  Not presently interested in buying a Volvo - have never bought one. (although the 18 mile range (now 20) is something that was a turn off to me on the XC90)  I am however interested in buying a Ford - have bought 10 in the last 25 years - 2 Mustangs, 5 F350 crewcabs and 3 Explorers.  Not sure why anyone is against constructive criticism.  I have said I will wait until the real world results come out, but it comes as no surprise to me that others would be criticizing the EV range/power.  I suspect everyone here wants Ford to succeed.  They should not be afraid to listen to potential buyers.

Here is my 5th cent or Nickles worth of why, oh why we engineers build something the way we build it.  

1.  Engineers can design and create pretty much anything!  So why don't they? 

  a. Government rules EPA,  CAFE, FMVSS and NHSTB  (49 CFR has many)

  b. Bean Counters

  c. Production Variation

  d. Time

  e. Market Survey

 

  Any one of the above can really muck up a great project.  Lets take the Aviator GT for instance.  Lincoln is joining the big boy table of E Luxury 3 row SUVs, it's like going to a black tie affair in Jeans and Sweaty T-shirt, you don't do it, Lincoln needed to dress up and boy did they.  You can't be at the table without good manners, it appears the finishing charm school worked.  To join the conversation of the elite, they had to speak of conservation, environment and class.  The after dinner cordials are always filled with performance tales from the livery. Nothing perks up ears like saying "Hot Rod Lincoln".   Lincoln needed to be on point to achieve blending in this exclusive club, without alienating the Blue Collar Ford fan.  I think they did an outstanding job, now to explain.

  

They may have looked at bigger everything's, but bigger especially batteries and motors are heavy mass, heavy mass does not help your crash test ratings unless it is all on the front bumper.  Then the bean counters said, hey you can't be within 15% of the price of our flagship.  Now, as the Engineers get frustrated, the production line guy says, you can't vary any larger than 15% of the explorer line, or we will need another manufacturing center.  #$%^&* say the engineers, then the memo from the glass house, "hey we need this prototype on the road in 18 months.  And Oh by the way, our Marketing team says this is what our customer wants and this is what it will take to get a conquest sale.  Most times, things are over built and throttled back, some to meet regulation, some for cost purposes, some are just a gut feeling something will be a problem.  Dave Pericak while lead designer of the 6th generation of Mustang kept an eight ball on his desk to help him decide what stayed and what went to meet costs.  This Sir, is why the Aviator is what it is and is not.

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