UAW extends Ford, Fiat Chrysler pacts; strike possible at GM

[Gurgeh]

25 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

The government losing money on the sale of the stock was merely the final loss in the GM experience - the secured and non secured debt holders of GM were the ones who took the biggest loss in favor of the union, GM, and other interests. GM having its debt wiped clean was a tremendous competitive advantage that GM management have failed to fully exploit, not to mention giving GM the ability to carry forward the losses of old GM - another advantage that its management have failed to take advantage of.

 

This is why I will refuse to buy a GM vehicle (I've owned them in the past, along with Japanese, German and Ford vehicles). I don't even cross-shop them to see what they're like as I don't want to give them more of my hard-earned money as I already gave them lots of it a decade ago from my tax dollars.

[jpd80]

37 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

The government losing money on the sale of the stock was merely the final loss in the GM experience - the secured and non secured debt holders of GM were the ones who took the biggest loss in favor of the union, GM, and other interests. GM having its debt wiped clean was a tremendous competitive advantage that GM management have failed to fully exploit, not to mention giving GM the ability to carry forward the losses of old GM - another advantage that its management have failed to take advantage of.

Worse than that, GM was given years of tax deduction that were part of the write downs on Old GM trapped in CH7.

Ford had no Idea how much the Government was willing to help GM, it was a big commercial advantage.

Edited September 23, 2019 by jpd80

[Bob Rosadini]

4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Bob, I don't intend taking sides with this as I think both sides were prepared for a fight. The whole tone adopted going into these "negotiations" has been adversarial and I suspect that's come about by both sides having huge perceptional differences. Someone needed to be the "adult" in these contract negotiations and take responsibility but it seems that both sides want this.

 

most of the senior staff have a modest salary with the rest tied up in as stock options that can only be exercised when the stock reaches a certain price.  

 

But that's the thing Bob, GM is no longer happy to pay the bulk of employee health costs, they want workers to shoulder more of the cost and they only want to look at 0.5% per year. GM is not interested in any change to the two tier wage system, mostly because they have found a great work-around, temporary labor as a third tier so they hold people in limbo for years with zero chance of getting near the two tier system.

 

 

Both sides are at fault here Bob, GM for being so hard nosed and the UAW for dragging workers into a strike that they can ill afford. Neither side is acting like adults and it's the people with least power and income that are suffering  in all of this. 

 

JP I  agree-both sides are to blame.  My definition of a good negotiation was when neither side was happy.  A true sign that compromise and the "give and take" process worked.

As for health costs, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that GM was willing to leave the health plan contribution rates where they were.  An unbelievably good deal for  the  rank and  file as most good plans today have an annual cost of in excess of $20,000 per  employee per year and most employee contribution rates are north of 35%.

 

I think the best thing GM could give on, would be to can the temp concept if in return the union agreed to keep the progression rates time frames with the "new tier" where they are.  I'm assuming there is no prohibition to laying off if the volume does not support the manpower count.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong guys.  Better to have  a higher paying job on down the road than no job at all. 
And as I've previously said, two tier stops working when there are all kinds of good paying manufacturing jobs out there.  Unfortunately in spite of the Donalds's speeches the good jobs are not coming back to the degree he would like.

[jpd80]

28 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

JP I  agree-both sides are to blame.  My definition of a good negotiation was when neither side was happy.  A true sign that compromise and the "give and take" process worked.

As for health costs, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that GM was willing to leave the health plan contribution rates where they were.  An unbelievably good deal for  the  rank and  file as most good plans today have an annual cost of in excess of $20,000 per  employee per year and most employee contribution rates are north of 35%.

 

I think the best thing GM could give on, would be to can the temp concept if in return the union agreed to keep the progression rates time frames with the "new tier" where they are.  I'm assuming there is no prohibition to laying off if the volume does not support the manpower count.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong guys.  Better to have  a higher paying job on down the road than no job at all. 
And as I've previously said, two tier stops working when there are all kinds of good paying manufacturing jobs out there.  Unfortunately in spite of the Donalds's speeches the good jobs are not coming back to the degree he would like.

This is basically what the eleventh hour deal was,

Quote

 

To begin the strike, the union rejected an eleventh-hour offer from GM that included $7 billion in U.S. investment,

the creation or retention of 5,400 jobs, an $8,000 ratification bonus and carryover health benefits.

 

The deal, however, failed to address the use of temporary workers or shorten the eight years it takes for new hires

to earn top wages, two priorities union leaders have vowed to address.

 

Saving jobs at some of the closed plants had a real sting too..

Quote

 

When General Motors made a deadline-day offer for a new labor contract to the UAW last week, it came with a gift.

The company was prepared to build batteries in an Ohio town that’s been sweating the prospect that half a century

of car-making will come to an end.

 

But there was a catch. GM and an as-yet-unnamed battery supplier for its next-generation electric vehicles would offer

wages similar to what the automaker pays non-assembly workers who top out at $17 an hour, according to people

familiar with the proposal. Senior-level plant staff make roughly $30 an hour. The shortfall is one of several reasons

the union rejected GM and went on strike.

 

For the UAW, who builds electric vehicles and how much they earn is an existential issue. Negotiators are already

trying to get a better deal for temporary and less-tenured workers who don’t make the top assembly wage -- part of a

tiered-pay system set up to rebuild union ranks in the wake of the recession. If it caves to GM again, the UAW fears

it will be chasing wages for a generation.

 

There are also grave concerns with essentially incentivizing GM to plow money into plants making battery cells and

packs -- which may require less labor and likely use more non-union sub-assembly components -- at the expense of

unionized factories making engines and transmissions for gas-burning autos.

 

 

The UAW is caught here between supporting existing engine and transmission plants and supporting battery plants

that will ultimately replace a lot of those jobs. If they accept lower wages for the battery plants and EV component

plants that probably will follow, I think they're scared that new era wages are going to send them backwards and 

make the two tier system look good in comparison.

 

If UAW negotiators agree to $17/hr wages with no chance of improvement, they'll pray for

the FBI to take them into custody..the rank and file would beat them senseless...

Edited September 24, 2019 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

13 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The UAW is caught here between supporting existing engine and transmission plants and supporting battery plants

that will ultimately replace a lot of those jobs. If they accept lower wages for the battery plants and EV component

plants that probably will follow, I think they're scared that new era wages are going to send them backwards and 

make the two tier system look good in comparison.

 

If UAW negotiators agree to $17/hr wages with no chance of improvement, they'll pray for

the FBI to take them into custody..the rank and file would beat them senseless...

 

This is already in the 2015 Ford contract. The parts plant in Rawsonville and the new hot metal forming department at Woodhaven Stamping are both under the "old" 2nd tier wage, which is capped out at $19.something/hour. This only applies to people hired after I think 2007 or something like that and supposedly they're really pushing the legacy workers to transfer out of those plants or just retire. 

[ausrutherford]

Got to wonder where the UAW is with both FCA and Ford. Last we heard they were over half done.

 

At this rate, they could be done with the FCA and Ford contracts by the time they settle with GM.

[jpd80]

16 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

This is already in the 2015 Ford contract. The parts plant in Rawsonville and the new hot metal forming department at Woodhaven Stamping are both under the "old" 2nd tier wage, which is capped out at $19.something/hour. This only applies to people hired after I think 2007 or something like that and supposedly they're really pushing the legacy workers to transfer out of those plants or just retire. 

Sounds similar except already less than the Folks at Ford are on, I don't think those GM battery plant jobs

(non-production line jobs) have any chance of advancement in wages even after the eight year period.

I think this is GM shaping the future and the UAW doesn't like it.....

 

Beginning to think that GM drew up the Ferengi Rules Of Acquisition.....LINK

Edited September 24, 2019 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

The biggest issue in my eyes is what exactly defines temporary. There's temps even at Ford that have been hanging around with  false hopes of ever gaining seniority for in some cases 5 years. Sorry, that's not temporary. 

[AlexB]

On September 19, 2019 at 3:56 PM, ausrutherford said:

UAW doesn't have the money to pay its members for that long.

 

Moody's is threating to downgrade GM's credit rating to Junk:https://seekingalpha.com/news/3500034-gm-ends-strikers-healthcare-junk-floated-moodys

[wildosvt]

13 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

This is already in the 2015 Ford contract. The parts plant in Rawsonville and the new hot metal forming department at Woodhaven Stamping are both under the "old" 2nd tier wage, which is capped out at $19.something/hour. This only applies to people hired after I think 2007 or something like that and supposedly they're really pushing the legacy workers to transfer out of those plants or just retire. 

 

I believe sterling is also apart of that.

[grbeck]

A big change is that for decades GM management would talk tough, and then essentially roll over and give the UAW most of what it wanted (and white-collar employees approved, as that meant more pay and benefits for them, too).

 

Whatever one can say about Mary Barra, I do not get the impression she is going to follow that playbook. She realizes that it's not 1965 anymore, and GM cannot afford to cave and try to pass along higher costs to customers.

[fuzzymoomoo]

2 hours ago, wildosvt said:

 

I believe sterling is also apart of that.

 

You’re right, I thought I was missing one.

[J-150]

3 hours ago, grbeck said:

A big change is that for decades GM management would talk tough, and then essentially roll over and give the UAW most of what it wanted (and white-collar employees approved, as that meant more pay and benefits for them, too).

 

Whatever one can say about Mary Barra, I do not get the impression she is going to follow that playbook. She realizes that it's not 1965 anymore, and GM cannot afford to cave and try to pass along higher costs to customers.

 

You think this is payback from Barra? A contract she disapproved of was forced on her when she was head of HR. Not shes correcting it.

[grbeck]

56 minutes ago, J-150 said:

 

You think this is payback from Barra? A contract she disapproved of was forced on her when she was head of HR. Not shes correcting it.

 

No, I'm saying that Mary Barra will not be following the typical negotiating playbook that has been used by GM executives over the past few decades. It has nothing to do with any alleged "payback."

[AlexB]

A couple of days away from the start of week 5 of the strike.

New UAW wants are U.S. Equinox production, and increase in Pension pay & benefits for GM's current retires.

But GM and UAW still haven't solve the core problems of temps/"part timers" and pay.

 

U.S. Equinox production would probably be the end of the road for CAMI and GM making vehicles in Canada.