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14 hours ago, novanglus said:


... well, I drive a 300mi range AWD performance sedan that goes from 0-60 in 3.2s that only cost $56k.  As far as I know, Tesla is the only one currently making anything remotely close to that.  Porsche will, for only $100k more...next year...except for the range.  Tesla deserves a little respect in that regard.

how often do you utilize 0-60 in 3.2s?...apart from stoplight showing off that's just bravado and chest bumping and absolutely worth nothing in day to day driving barring bragging rights.....and FYI the new Mach E will be cheaper and have similar specs..will be interesting to see side by side comparisons, although the E will have a taller top hat..

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6 hours ago, Deanh said:

how often do you utilize 0-60 in 3.2s?...apart from stoplight showing off that's just bravado and chest bumping and absolutely worth nothing in day to day driving barring bragging rights.....and FYI the new Mach E will be cheaper and have similar specs..will be interesting to see side by side comparisons, although the E will have a taller top hat..


...don’t tell Ford.  They built a Mustang GT, GT350, GT500, a High Performance Edition, Performance Pack, Level 2 Performance Pack, and a Bullitt, Focus RS, Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Explorer ST, a Edge ST, and Raptor all for chest thumpers.

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1 hour ago, novanglus said:


...don’t tell Ford.  They built a Mustang GT, GT350, GT500, a High Performance Edition, Performance Pack, Level 2 Performance Pack, and a Bullitt, Focus RS, Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Explorer ST, a Edge ST, and Raptor all for chest thumpers.

 

And none of them with the limited range and long “fueling” issues your electric vehicle has. 

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While battery tech is important to BEVs, having efficient motors is just as important but

I think a lot of people including people reporting on BEVs just don't pick up on the significance.

 

The AC motors are brilliant for all out performance but the hybrid DC motors offer great gains

in light load efficiency and lower cost. There's really a lot of push-pull there and selecting

the right types for the right applications makes the world of difference.

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1 hour ago, Trader 10 said:

 

And none of them with the limited range and long “fueling” issues your electric vehicle has. 

 

And how many of them have the performance or fuel economy of the Tesla?  The knife cuts both ways.  Electric is the future The FE is there and the performance is there. Ford, GM, and even Harly Davidson think so.  I am glad they are all investing in the tech so they don't get left behind.

 

And remember the Mach E would never exist without Tesla.  I can't stand Musk, but the guy has definitely turned the auto industry on its ear.  FFS Rivian is about to release a fairly capable pickup the gets to 60 in 3 seconds with a 400-mile range (if it is true). What is the performance going to be like in 10 years? 

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1 hour ago, the_spaniard said:

 

And how many of them have the performance or fuel economy of the Tesla?  The knife cuts both ways.  Electric is the future The FE is there and the performance is there. Ford, GM, and even Harly Davidson think so.  I am glad they are all investing in the tech so they don't get left behind.

 

And remember the Mach E would never exist without Tesla.  I can't stand Musk, but the guy has definitely turned the auto industry on its ear.  FFS Rivian is about to release a fairly capable pickup the gets to 60 in 3 seconds with a 400-mile range (if it is true). What is the performance going to be like in 10 years? 

 

I really don’t care about the performance or fuel economy when a vehicle’s limitations make a trip across the state and back a two day affair. I’m sure at some point EV’s will have sufficient range and charging speed to make them mainstream vehicles but they aren’t close yet. Until that happens EV’s are just expensive, limited purpose transportation. 

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It’s easy to do cool things when you you don’t have to turn a profit.  What changed the BEV market viability is battery cost, performance and range has finally hit the sweet spot where it appeals to a decent number of buyers so now those companies that actually do have to make a profit can sell them.

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10 hours ago, the_spaniard said:

 

And how many of them have the performance or fuel economy of the Tesla?  The knife cuts both ways.  Electric is the future The FE is there and the performance is there. Ford, GM, and even Harly Davidson think so.  I am glad they are all investing in the tech so they don't get left behind.

 

And remember the Mach E would never exist without Tesla.  I can't stand Musk, but the guy has definitely turned the auto industry on its ear.  FFS Rivian is about to release a fairly capable pickup the gets to 60 in 3 seconds with a 400-mile range (if it is true). What is the performance going to be like in 10 years? 

 

The only problem is that the LiveWire has been DOA at Harly dealerships-they have a bunch of other issues also-

https://jalopnik.com/harley-davidsons-livewire-has-so-far-been-a-flop-repor-1838852741

 

Not sure if you have checked out the pricing on the Rivian, but your looking at Range Rover pricing for them-they start at $80K. i'm not 100% sure how they are going to be able to make electric vans for Amazon and make a profit on them at that rate.

 

Till someone figures out how to sell a BEV for $30-40K without any government incentives on it and turn a profit on it-they are going to be limited vehicles for another 10-20 years.

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16 hours ago, novanglus said:


...don’t tell Ford.  They built a Mustang GT, GT350, GT500, a High Performance Edition, Performance Pack, Level 2 Performance Pack, and a Bullitt, Focus RS, Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Explorer ST, a Edge ST, and Raptor all for chest thumpers.

and every single one of those is a more enjoyable ride....and Ive yet to hear one owner tell me theirs is the "best car in the world"...theres certain egos yes...but they pale in comparison to most tesla owners....and I don't recall Ford ever going 14 quarters without turning a profit....

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14 hours ago, the_spaniard said:

 

And how many of them have the performance or fuel economy of the Tesla?  The knife cuts both ways.  Electric is the future The FE is there and the performance is there. Ford, GM, and even Harly Davidson think so.  I am glad they are all investing in the tech so they don't get left behind.

 

And remember the Mach E would never exist without Tesla.  I can't stand Musk, but the guy has definitely turned the auto industry on its ear.  FFS Rivian is about to release a fairly capable pickup the gets to 60 in 3 seconds with a 400-mile range (if it is true). What is the performance going to be like in 10 years? 

Tesla did NOT invent the Electric car...but I will give them credit for upping the ante and lighting a fire under the segment. And performance isn't only in a straight line....theres are a multitude of vehicles which aren't as quick in a straight line that would eat the tesla for lunch on a track or a winding mountain road, that are more enjoyable for enthusiasts. Electric is, IMO, NOT the Future yet, and wont be for a while...I believe Hybrids are more viable, it will take decades before plug in stations match the convenience of a regular gas station. And I for one wouldn't buy any vehicle where I have to plot out where and when I am obliged to stop knowing what my range is. Anything with an ICE doesn't have that issue. As for Harley...their electric bike is failing miserably, so Im not sure that should be used as an example...or Faraday, or Dyson....Fisker, Aptera, Coda...Detroit Electric....  

Edited by Deanh
spelling as per the norm,,,
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17 hours ago, novanglus said:


...don’t tell Ford.  They built a Mustang GT, GT350, GT500, a High Performance Edition, Performance Pack, Level 2 Performance Pack, and a Bullitt, Focus RS, Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Explorer ST, a Edge ST, and Raptor all for chest thumpers.

and Id rather own any one of those over a Tesla for enthusiast reasons....love to see a head to head on a track, and a Tesla with a raptor off road would be humorous....even with the Raptor towing a dolly because theres no charging station in the dunes....

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4 hours ago, Deanh said:

and every single one of those is a more enjoyable ride....and Ive yet to hear one owner tell me theirs is the "best car in the world"...theres certain egos yes...but they pale in comparison to most tesla owners....and I don't recall Ford ever going 14 quarters without turning a profit....


...come on, don’t start building straw men.  If Ford made the Model 3 Performance, every Ford fan would be singing its praises.  It is an amazing car.  It has its shortcomings, I know, I own one, but so does every car.

 

I am looking forward to seeing the Mach and having another American made EV in the family is a real possibility.  The only question is Model Y or Mach E.  Ultimately that is up to Ford’s execution.

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4 hours ago, Deanh said:

and Id rather own any one of those over a Tesla for enthusiast reasons....love to see a head to head on a track, and a Tesla with a raptor off road would be humorous....even with the Raptor towing a dolly because theres no charging station in the dunes....


I suggest you drive a M3P first.  It isnt a Model S.  It handles track duty fine.  Seriously, people need to get over their prejudice about them.  Back in my day, when a new cool car came out we went to the dealership and drove it.  I’ve given rides to or let drive over 2 dozen people in mine, and every one comes away stunned at how well it drives and performs.

 

Tesla is the first American car company to really stick it to the Germans.  You should be happy.

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16 minutes ago, novanglus said:


...come on, don’t start building straw men.  If Ford made the Model 3 Performance, every Ford fan would be singing its praises.  It is an amazing car.  It has its shortcomings, I know, I own one, but so does every car.

 

I am looking forward to seeing the Mach and having another American made EV in the family is a real possibility.  The only question is Model Y or Mach E.  Ultimately that is up to Ford’s execution.

 

I don't know if anyone here would be parading a car made in a tent. Yet somehow Elon can and his followers (you) eat it up.

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Both parties seem to think in extremes.  I love Teslas, but I can't stand the blind overzealous ignorance of the Tesla evangelists which has thoroughly turned me off to the brand, I don't want to be part of that community.  But similarly I can't stand the Ford fans who won't allow themselves, under any circumstances, to acknowledge the numerous and hard-earned achievements and innovations of Tesla.  What they've done is extraordinary and it doesn't make Ford less for acknowledging it, just as Tesla fans shouldn't talk about what other carmakers should be doing when they don't understand the reality of the industry at all (or care that Tesla is held afloat by investors and personality and haven't created a great working environment).   But I stand by my belief that Tesla is the most influential carmaker since Ford. It's like the iPhone, there might have been smartphones before iPhone, but they were terrible and nobody liked them.  Tesla (like iPhone) created a product so brilliant and innovative that it becomes the archetype of everything that follows.

 

I don't think people really understand why Tesla is so innovative.  Ford fans tend to just see the car, something any automaker could clone if they don't care about profits.  They don't see the sales and service model which is handled easily online, solving a very old barrier to car purchasing and servicing.  The charging infrastructure not only includes fast charging innovations, but a navigation system that calculates range and schedules charging visits down to the minute.  The electronics system on a Tesla is another innovation, it's de-modularized and centralized with the ability to update all vehicle systems like a smartphone making it the only automotive system that can consistently ADD and IMPROVE the car without buying the next one, further increasing value and longevity.  And then there is autonomous tech and AI, which is the most controversial aspect of Tesla but it's also another industry movement where they can take full responsibility for creating. There is just so much amazing innovation coming from Tesla whether you like the company or not, they've influenced allot of new thinking and are definitely a solid decade ahead of the global automotive market.  As a Detroiter who was long told that America makes old school garbage, Tesla finally shut them up. 

 

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2 hours ago, novanglus said:


I suggest you drive a M3P first.  It isnt a Model S.  It handles track duty fine.  Seriously, people need to get over their prejudice about them.  Back in my day, when a new cool car came out we went to the dealership and drove it.  I’ve given rides to or let drive over 2 dozen people in mine, and every one comes away stunned at how well it drives and performs.

 

Tesla is the first American car company to really stick it to the Germans.  You should be happy.

? not sold at all...and that stems from every tesla owner Ive met attempting to convince everyone around them how much better their car is than everyone elses...news flash...its not...same with every enthusiast website or blog...Tesla trolling...Ive been in the car...its nice...the best?...no, Ive been impressed more by other makes and models...owners need to get over themselves , that said...its predominantly the S and X owners with their noses in the Air. And Elon does absolutely no favors to the brands stigma either...I will also repeat what I stated...there are a multitude of cars which offer a more enjoyable driving experience, on the road and on the track that are significantly less money...but Ive yet to see the Tesla model that would level that field from a price standpoint yet...y'know...that $35k odel that apparently got 180000 reservations....ahem. And tell me...how exactly has Tesla "stuck it to the germans"...they all outsell and out profit tesla quite substantially, have better fit and finish, are more upmarket, utilize better quality materials and have a better infrastructure of Dealers and Service facilities. And no offence, sorry to burst your bubble, but this is EXACTLY what I mean about tesla owners....they get on every Car site just to tell people how good they think THEIR car is in comparison with everything else.

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19 minutes ago, Assimilator said:

Both parties seem to think in extremes.  I love Teslas, but I can't stand the blind overzealous ignorance of the Tesla evangelists which has thoroughly turned me off to the brand, I don't want to be part of that community.  But similarly I can't stand the Ford fans who won't allow themselves, under any circumstances, to acknowledge the numerous and hard-earned achievements and innovations of Tesla.  What they've done is extraordinary and it doesn't make Ford less for acknowledging it, just as Tesla fans shouldn't talk about what other carmakers should be doing when they don't understand the reality of the industry at all (or care that Tesla is held afloat by investors and personality and haven't created a great working environment).   But I stand by my belief that Tesla is the most influential carmaker since Ford. It's like the iPhone, there might have been smartphones before iPhone, but they were terrible and nobody liked them.  Tesla (like iPhone) created a product so brilliant and innovative that it becomes the archetype of everything that follows.

 

I don't think people really understand why Tesla is so innovative.  Ford fans tend to just see the car, something any automaker could clone if they don't care about profits.  They don't see the sales and service model which is handled easily online, solving a very old barrier to car purchasing and servicing.  The charging infrastructure not only includes fast charging innovations, but a navigation system that calculates range and schedules charging visits down to the minute.  The electronics system on a Tesla is another innovation, it's de-modularized and centralized with the ability to update all vehicle systems like a smartphone making it the only automotive system that can consistently ADD and IMPROVE the car without buying the next one, further increasing value and longevity.  And then there is autonomous tech and AI, which is the most controversial aspect of Tesla but it's also another industry movement where they can take full responsibility for creating. There is just so much amazing innovation coming from Tesla whether you like the company or not, they've influenced allot of new thinking and are definitely a solid decade ahead of the global automotive market.  As a Detroiter who was long told that America makes old school garbage, Tesla finally shut them up. 

 

well put, can agree with a majority of that...but imagine how much more successful tesla would have been if they franchised….even their glorious leader has stated that ultimately will happen when sales numbers require it. They would have had a far superior infrastructure, removed massive financial responsibility and had Dealers in basically every state no problem. Would've had service bays everywhere, removed the overheads of land leases, property costs, construction costs, employee overheads etc etc etc.....they could have then concentrated on what they should have...investing in their product, its quality and distribution. Im actually surprised they have remained afloat. And FWIW, I actually like the product...its just not the Holy Grail all the owners are dead set on convincing everyone, think it is. But I do agree, the brand HAS lit a fire under the segment. Will be interesting how Tesla handles the influx of competition in a niche they have pretty much had to themselves for so long.  

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Once Mach E arrives, everything changes for Ford buyers and fans

so we won't have to imagine what a  Ford version of Tesla 3P is like,

we'll have something much better with Mustang styling...

 

I'm pretty sure that Ford's BEV fans will be way more obnoxious that Tesla devotees.

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1 minute ago, jpd80 said:

Once Mach E arrives, everything changes for Ford buyers and fans

so we won't have to imagine what a  Ford version of Tesla 3P is like,

we'll have something much better with Mustang styling...

high hopes for sure...just to quieten the Tesla cultists.....but jurys out until we actually get our hands on the product to see if it lives up to comparison...I just hope they have a normal dash board, the trend of huge tablets is just an invitation for distracted driving... ESPECIALLY if it supplies ALL information and requires eyes to go from anything but straight ahead..

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