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49 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

I agree with you there. Other than SYNC, what in the last  15-20 years have they been first to market with instead of coming to it 5 years after almost everyone else. 

 

Ford was very busy during the Mullally years with innovations that became the standard industry wide, like hands-free lift gates, capless fuel doors, assisted parking tech, BLISS, Cross Traffic alert, and many more little things.  Today Hyundai and Kia seem to be that innovator, creating clever new features which surprise and delight (my favorite is the blind spot camera).

 

There are a few things Ford is doing that help like Phone as Key and HUD, but it's all tied to exclusive trims in certain vehicles as opposed to the full-scale roll-out that all customers could benefit from.   Ford does seem to be getting the big ticket items right, like fuel economy, performance, drivetrains, etc.  Ford is still interested in standing apart, and there is more to come.

 

As for Explorer, I don't get it.  I haven't understood this program since I learned about it and the final product leaves me even more perplexed.  So much value in the vehicle is intangible, it's not particularly clever or luxurious.  I ultimately need to see how this sells, or doesn't sell.  

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This is also a result of Jim H taking a lot of $$$ out of development budgets for his other priorities,

so Ford is basically sticking to its knitting while the BEVs  and AVs get favored development funding.

 

In some ways I believe we're getting an inkling of the future for companies like Ford, they have to shift

to BEVs and performance hybrids otherwise they're gonna get picked off by the fast improving Koreans. 

 

Ford needs to stay in the Utility segments even if they don't have super high returns as the trucks will

take care of the bills, the new Super Dutys will take a lot of the load off Ford's shoulders next year,

I recon we'll see some big numbers  ($$ and sales) with the 7.3 Selling across the SD range.

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36 minutes ago, Assimilator said:

As for Explorer, I don't get it.  I haven't understood this program since I learned about it and the final product leaves me even more surprised.  It really does look like something that lost sight of its existing customer.  So much value in the vehicle is intangible, it's not particularly clever or luxurious.  I ultimately need to see how this sells, but I don't think anybody should buy the Explorer unless you're going for Platinum or ST which can't be bested by anything else in the segment.  The rest of the Explorer range is less convincing.  

 

You kinda touched on a nerve for me here. When the new Explorer was revealed I wanted to get one, having 2 kids and talking about having a third after all. When pricing was announced I pretty vocally balked as what you don't get for the amount of money they’re asking and that opinion hasn't changed much at all. We're looking at used 3+ year old Flexes and I'm able to find plenty of them with just as much (if not more) options added with fairly low miles for about half the price. That's probably the direction we're going to go now that used car prices are starting to drop. 

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I was excited about the prospects of a RWD architecture with all the new Hybrid tech, but I didn't quite expect the lack of substance in the vehicle across the lineup.  I was concerned the platform was too expensive for the Explorer and it turns out that might very well be the case, especially since it's the only product riding on this architecture besides Aviator.  Essentially it's hard to ignore that all models of the Explorer are paying the price to use a platform good enough to support the Aviator and the 3.0T PHEV.  And with a strut suspension and lack of adaptive dampers or distinctive luxury technologies, the most expensive Explorers seem overpriced among the luxury competition (even Lincoln).  It's a weird niche they are in, but maybe it's the right one?  Maybe they'll be able to shift more of their sales volume toward Platinums and STs and make more money on the same or less volume. 

 

I get the feeling Ford was out to achieve an engineering objective and wasn't necessarily customer focused because they didn't seem to have much new to offer on the inside.  They didn't even put power-ports or USB connectors in the 3rd row of a NEW 2020 family vehicle, let alone any other clever family feature like seat monitors that tell you if you left somebody in the vehicle.  All of this isn't necessary and maybe Ford has a reason for keeping it very basic and prioritizing more driver-focused improvements.  Maybe Explorer shoppers don't wan't overtly family-oriented vehicle, the Jeep Grand Cherokee is their primary target believe it or not. 

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44 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

We're looking at used 3+ year old Flexes and I'm able to find plenty of them with just as much (if not more) options added with fairly low miles for about half the price. That's probably the direction we're going to go now that used car prices are starting to drop. 

 

The Flex is an awesome family hauler...we've got 125k on our '09 now.  Get the middle row buckets with the walk-through between them.  Wonderful for when #3 comes along!

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1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

I agree with you there. Other than SYNC, what in the last  15-20 years have they been first to market with instead of coming to it 5 years after almost everyone else. 

 

Selectshift in 1999.  Door keypad.  Several F150 features including the tailgate step, pro trailer assist, trailer sway control.  Ecoboost engines across the lineup.  10 speed auto.  Phone as a key.  Mainstream PHEV (cmax and Fusion energi).  Collision warning and radar cruise control (2012).  

Flat plane crank V8.

 

A lot lot more than you think.

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40 minutes ago, Assimilator said:

I was excited about the prospects of a RWD architecture with all the new Hybrid tech, but I didn't quite expect the lack of substance in the vehicle across the lineup.  I was concerned the platform was too expensive for the Explorer and it turns out that might very well be the case, especially since it's the only product riding on this architecture besides Aviator.  Essentially it's hard to ignore that all models of the Explorer are paying the price to use a platform good enough to support the Aviator and the 3.0T PHEV.  And with a strut suspension and lack of adaptive dampers or distinctive luxury technologies, the most expensive Explorers seem overpriced among the luxury competition (even Lincoln).  It's a weird niche they are in, but maybe it's the right one?  Maybe they'll be able to shift more of their sales volume toward Platinums and STs and make more money on the same or less volume. 

 

I get the feeling Ford was out to achieve an engineering objective and wasn't necessarily customer focused because they didn't seem to have much new to offer on the inside.  They didn't even put power-ports or USB connectors in the 3rd row of a NEW 2020 family vehicle, let alone any other clever family feature like seat monitors that tell you if you left somebody in the vehicle.  All of this isn't necessary and maybe Ford has a reason for keeping it very basic and prioritizing more driver-focused improvements.  Maybe Explorer shoppers don't wan't overtly family-oriented vehicle, the Jeep Grand Cherokee is their primary target believe it or not. 

 

They did go all in on Aviator -  had to cut Explorer to do that.  I admit it’s a bit disappointing.  The new stuff better be home runs.

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I still don't get why they thought they had to give Aviator SLAS and then cheapen Explorer with Mac struts.

It's like Ford went to extremes to save money instead of giving customers the value they're paying for.

It's like Ford wants Aviator /Premium Explorer buyers to pay North of $50K but below that,

I'm wondering what buyers really get between the $36K entry price and that sub $50K  limit....

maybe I should spend some time on the configurator and learn a thing or two...

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1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

They did go all in on Aviator -  had to cut Explorer to do that.  I admit it’s a bit disappointing.  The new stuff better be home runs.

I had a look at the Explorer and Aviator configurators, it's like Ford is trying to encourage more of its

Explorer Limited buyers into the Standard Aviator - particularly if they want the 3.0 TT V6.

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I think Ford is working on a few C2 utilities and one of them will probably replace the current US market Edge.

 

1. 3-row utility about the size of VW Tiguan Allspace or Nissan Rogue. This will likely replace the Edge in Europe.

2. 2-row utility to replace Mondeo. This will end up being closest replacement for US market Edge if they decide to sell it in the US. 

3. 3-row utility about the size of current Edge. This will likely replace the Edge in China.

 

On top of that, Ford is working on a Model E utility for Flat Rock that is also Edge size. 

 

It's very possible that Ford will choose not to replace Edge directly at all and instead go with the BEV+one of the C2 option. 

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2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I had a look at the Explorer and Aviator configurators, it's like Ford is trying to encourage more of its

Explorer Limited buyers into the Standard Aviator - particularly if they want the 3.0 TT V6.

 

I actually don't think the Platinum or ST are that unreasonable, but the Limited configuration is typically the sweet volume spot and it's just way too expensive, especially if you add AWD ($2,000) which becomes more of a necessity with RWD in snowy climates.  That puts the base AWD Limited where the old Platinum topped off.  The most egregious thing is really the XLT 202A package which is a $5,140 upgrade for synthetic leather, powered passenger seat, remote start, and LED fog lights.  That really skyrockets the price of Explorer for most shoppers and where the price increase is most apparent.  I don't know how they are going to retain volume with that pricing, but it would be awesome if they do. 

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2 hours ago, Assimilator said:

 

I actually don't think the Platinum or ST are that unreasonable, but the Limited configuration is typically the sweet volume spot and it's just way too expensive, especially if you add AWD ($2,000) which becomes more of a necessity with RWD in snowy climates.  That puts the base AWD Limited where the old Platinum topped off.  The most egregious thing is really the XLT 202A package which is a $5,140 upgrade for synthetic leather, powered passenger seat, remote start, and LED fog lights.  That really skyrockets the price of Explorer for most shoppers and where the price increase is most apparent.  I don't know how they are going to retain volume with that pricing, but it would be awesome if they do. 

^^^^^^^^^^ Which is close to the Standard RWD Aviator's price, you get the 3.0 TT V6 but AWD is another $2K?

Normally ' a limited would equal that loaded up XLT package you mentioned which tops around $45K for RWD.

Edited by jpd80
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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

I think Ford is working on a few C2 utilities and one of them will probably replace the current US market Edge.

 

1. 3-row utility about the size of VW Tiguan Allspace or Nissan Rogue. This will likely replace the Edge in Europe.

2. 2-row utility to replace Mondeo. This will end up being closest replacement for US market Edge if they decide to sell it in the US. 

3. 3-row utility about the size of current Edge. This will likely replace the Edge in China.

 

On top of that, Ford is working on a Model E utility for Flat Rock that is also Edge size. 

 

It's very possible that Ford will choose not to replace Edge directly at all and instead go with the BEV+one of the C2 option. 

The BEVs going to Flat rock are not related to Model E.

There is a new Edge under development for 2023

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5 hours ago, Assimilator said:

 

I actually don't think the Platinum or ST are that unreasonable, but the Limited configuration is typically the sweet volume spot and it's just way too expensive, especially if you add AWD ($2,000) which becomes more of a necessity with RWD in snowy climates.  That puts the base AWD Limited where the old Platinum topped off.  The most egregious thing is really the XLT 202A package which is a $5,140 upgrade for synthetic leather, powered passenger seat, remote start, and LED fog lights.  That really skyrockets the price of Explorer for most shoppers and where the price increase is most apparent.  I don't know how they are going to retain volume with that pricing, but it would be awesome if they do. 

 

I thought the prevalent thought was that most Explorers are leased, so people are just looking at a monthly payment? Then Ford can resell them as a CPO at a nice profit?

 

I think the other issue is that lower end models might seem "cheap" because Ford with other products has been losing money on them (like the Escape), so they are trying to thread the needle with value/price/profit on the lower end models.

 

 

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8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

^^^^^^^^^^ Which is close to the Standard RWD Aviator's price, you get the 3.0 TT V6 but AWD is another $2K?

Normally ' a limited would equal that loaded up XLT package you mentioned which tops around $45K for RWD.

 

That might work for some, but you will never get me into a Lincoln. 

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10 hours ago, Assimilator said:

The most egregious thing is really the XLT 202A package which is a $5,140 upgrade for synthetic leather, powered passenger seat, remote start, and LED fog lights.  That really skyrockets the price of Explorer for most shoppers and where the price increase is most apparent.  I don't know how they are going to retain volume with that pricing, but it would be awesome if they do. 

 

Agreed. My wife insisted on a big moonroof this time, since our daughters Escape has one, but requiring the 202A package caused us to drop down to an Edge.

 

HRG

Explorer 202A with moonroof.JPG

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The 202A package is kinda like the way Apple treats storage upgrades on their most expensive iPhone, they make 64GB standard so they force you to spend way more on something that doesn't cost nearly that much.  It's good business I know, but it makes you lose interest in Explorer pretty quickly when you realize how much you have to spend to make just one step up on XLT.  Essentially the real price of the Explorer is XLT+ 202A.  Nobody is going to buy the fleet special.

 

The only Explorers that stand out to me is the ST, you won't find competition that can compete with that.  The Platinum is less convincing with Aviator, especially with the significantly detuned version of the 3.0T.  The Hybrid also doesn't make any sense unless you're a fleet customer that drives primarily city. It's an interesting Hybrid because it's more capable, but the fuel savings are almost negligible and worse with AWD.  I'm curious about towing economy, but that's also a niche application.   But for the rest, Explorer offers a great base drivetrain with excellent economy with most of the amenities people expect...just nothing more despite the huge price increases.  So if your'e going to spend this much on Explorer,  might as well check all the boxes.  Otherwise, you can probably find better products for the money elsewhere...until they start rising prices too. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Assimilator said:

 Essentially the real price of the Explorer is XLT+ 202A.  Nobody is going to buy the fleet special.  

 

Well, consider me a nobody then. Our '14 200A AWD + tow Explorer served us well for 5 years and 62K miles, I had every intention of getting the same AWD 200A + tow + moonroof, but not at a $5K premium.

So now I have a vehicle assembled in Canada, with an engine made in Spain.

 

HRG

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What's the biggest gripe? Price, interior, or option packaging?

 

I have yet to drive one or even sit in one so I have no personal experience. Seems competitively priced with Toyota and Honda. Comparing it to a KIA or Hyundai, it's always going to be more expensive. The long term reliability in Koreans is lacking, IMHO.

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2 hours ago, jcartwright99 said:

The long term reliability in Koreans is lacking, IMHO.


What do you consider long term?   Since Kia/Hyundai vehicles include a 5yr/60k bumper to bumper and 10yr/100k powertrain warranty, this shouldn’t be a concern.  And yes, I realize these warranties might require specific dealer supplied maintenance.  

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How would you categorize abnormal wear and tear, creaks rattles? I have anecdotal evidence from friends and what I read but it mostly falls in that category. Recently car and driver had a Stinger that was constantly needing work.

 

Have they gotten better? Sure. Would I want one for the long haul? Probably not. They have cheap labor costs but where else do you think that low price comes from?

 

Long term to me means > 5 years more than 100k.

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