Ford Said to be Shifting Plans for Flat Rock (again...)

[Assimilator]

The thing is, OHAP produces fundamentally different product than the premium BEV Crossovers presumed to go there.  I have a hard time understanding how they can share a plant with the E-Series Chassis cabs and F-3/4/550.  I am not assuming the BEVs are going there at this point.  

[Fatso]

Contract Highlights say that 250 million for product and investment is going to FRAP.New product is,all new mustang,including derivatives+Lincoln Continental will continue through its product lifecycle.Sounds like FRAP is gonna be a mustang plant.Kinda dicey if sales slip.

[Assimilator]

Mustang sales are fickle, hard getting around that.  But the electrified Mustangs may help to boost interest again.  

[jasonj80]

Part of these could also come down to tax breaks as well, certain elected officials in the state of Michigan are at war with any company that gets them and Ford might not want to get tossed into that fight here after the beating they took over the train station and getting those.  They'll still get them for some projects but they won't end up being a lighting rod for them and the negative PR that goes with it. FCA is getting that with the new plant they are building in Detroit that they are not doing enough and are asking for too much. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

10 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

Part of these could also come down to tax breaks as well, certain elected officials in the state of Michigan are at war with any company that gets them and Ford might not want to get tossed into that fight here after the beating they took over the train station and getting those.  They'll still get them for some projects but they won't end up being a lighting rod for them and the negative PR that goes with it. FCA is getting that with the new plant they are building in Detroit that they are not doing enough and are asking for too much. 

 

Thats because certain municipalities *cough* Detroit *cough* are handing out buckets of money (that they don't have, btw) at the expense of first responders and future debt payments. 

[jasonj80]

2 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Thats because certain municipalities *cough* Detroit *cough* are handing out buckets of money (that they don't have, btw) at the expense of first responders and future debt payments. 

The alternative is that you get zero tax dollars because the jobs go elsewhere. Detroit will still make millions off the income tax the workers will pay at the plants/train station. Problem with Detroit is that the millage rate for property taxes is insane at $88/$1000 for non-homestead. No company without a massive tax break would ever locate there. They'll discount the property tax and then make the tax on the income of employees that work there, plus you give preferential treatment to people that live in the city getting more income tax. (2.4% vs 1.2%)

The problem is that the tax system in Michigan is broken, state has decimated revenue sharing over the past 25 years, voters capped increase in taxable value in 1994 (Prop A) and state has allowed for zero in ways of new taxes to be collected so the issue just compounds over the years. You have a massively bloated governmental structure and massive liabilities that were promised on terms that never made any sense; when you make tens of thousands more in your pension than your base salary ever was it is bound to end in failure. It's not just Detroit that is in bad shape, Allen Park, Warren, Mt Clements, Trenton, Flat Rock, Taylor, Romulus, Clawson, Royal Oak Twp, Harper Woods, and don't even look at Macomb County, the next recession is going to be brutal and I suspect you will see City's and School districts forces to merge/close. 

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, Assimilator said:

The thing is, OHAP produces fundamentally different product than the premium BEV Crossovers presumed to go there.  I have a hard time understanding how they can share a plant with the E-Series Chassis cabs and F-3/4/550.  I am not assuming the BEVs are going there at this point.  

 

Because they built unibody products in the form of the Villager/Quest and the Escape/Mariner for almost 12 years? Apparently part of the plant can build unibody products-or could at one point in time. 

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, Fatso said:

Contract Highlights say that 250 million for product and investment is going to FRAP.New product is,all new mustang,including derivatives+Lincoln Continental will continue through its product lifecycle.Sounds like FRAP is gonna be a mustang plant.Kinda dicey if sales slip.

 

The Mustang sells about 100-120K units worldwide (it sold 113,066 last year-to keep its title of the best selling sports car in the world) every year. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

22 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The Mustang sells about 100-120K units worldwide (it sold 113,066 last year-to keep its title of the best selling sports car in the world) every year. 

 

Thats still only 1 shift of production and Mustang sales are notoriously seasonal. 

[silvrsvt]

2 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Thats still only 1 shift of production and Mustang sales are notoriously seasonal. 

 

Right, I was pointing out the typical sales numbers for it-I know that having just the Mustang at a plant isn't going to keep its doors open. 

[akirby]

Just a reminder - this forum is for employees only.  I think some of you didn't realize this was the employee forum because there is an identical topic in the FMC section.  Please continue the non-employee discussion here:

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by akirby

[fuzzymoomoo]

4 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

The alternative is that you get zero tax dollars because the jobs go elsewhere. Detroit will still make millions off the income tax the workers will pay at the plants/train station. Problem with Detroit is that the millage rate for property taxes is insane at $88/$1000 for non-homestead. No company without a massive tax break would ever locate there. They'll discount the property tax and then make the tax on the income of employees that work there, plus you give preferential treatment to people that live in the city getting more income tax. (2.4% vs 1.2%)

The problem is that the tax system in Michigan is broken, state has decimated revenue sharing over the past 25 years, voters capped increase in taxable value in 1994 (Prop A) and state has allowed for zero in ways of new taxes to be collected so the issue just compounds over the years. You have a massively bloated governmental structure and massive liabilities that were promised on terms that never made any sense; when you make tens of thousands more in your pension than your base salary ever was it is bound to end in failure. It's not just Detroit that is in bad shape, Allen Park, Warren, Mt Clements, Trenton, Flat Rock, Taylor, Romulus, Clawson, Royal Oak Twp, Harper Woods, and don't even look at Macomb County, the next recession is going to be brutal and I suspect you will see City's and School districts forces to merge/close. 

 

I'm not saying don't give tax incentives at all, obviously it's wise to be competitive but what Detroit is doing is asinine. 

 

Go go listen to Charlie LeDuff's No BS News podcast. He's all over it and why it's going to lead Detroit right back to bankruptcy in the next 3-4 years. 

[jasonj80]

1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

I'm not saying don't give tax incentives at all, obviously it's wise to be competitive but what Detroit is doing is asinine. 

 

Go go listen to Charlie LeDuff's No BS News podcast. He's all over it and why it's going to lead Detroit right back to bankruptcy in the next 3-4 years. 

Detroit is in a bad spot, they are really damned if they do and damned if they don't, they have marginal leadership at best and an electorate that will almost always vote yes to any mileage placed in-front of them.

LeDuff is a story teller that selectively chooses the facts he'd like to use to tell a story, you could substitute many city's to the same story, he's very engaging and factually accurate but is telling a story rather than reporting just facts. One of the biggest problem is bonds that a city sells, it allows elected officials to get projects done with money from the future. Bonds to build a well planned new road/infrastructure that will spur development or fix a major issue in a community are good as they allow for larger tax base in the future. But when you get carried away (Carmel Indiana) You can end up making something beautiful in the short term but long term are saddling the community with a massive amount of debt. Carmel for instance is named the best place to live in the USA, however has a higher debt liability per resident than Detroit did during bankruptcy or Chicago does now. Bonds to cover pension liability's or are sold for a mayor/council/governor political promise, political payback, or targeted demography are problems. Worse is when Bonds are used to build items that have high re occurring costs they can build the building but can't afford to maintain it.

Which brings us kinda back to what this topic is about about investment in Flat Rock. When Ford invested hundreds of millions of dollars in Flat Rock they assisted the City of Flat Rock in building the Recreation Center. Ford helped build a building that today costs Flat Rock over $400,000/year to keep open, (down from over $700,000 a few years ago) as it doesn't generate enough revenue to cover the costs leading to deferred maintenance. However the Mayor/Council at the time looked really good in the community for getting such a good deal from Ford as the building was beautiful and didn't require much maintenance for the years. Ford got a tax break for the plant. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by jasonj80

[fuzzymoomoo]

7 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

When Ford invested hundreds of millions of dollars in Flat Rock they assisted the City of Flat Rock in building the Recreation Center.

 

Mazda played a part in that too. The sign to this day says auto alliance and has a Mazda logo on it. I ride my bike by there all the time heading to Erie metropark 

[jasonj80]

1 minute ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Mazda played a part in that too. The sign to this day says auto alliance and has a Mazda logo on it. I ride my bike by there all the time heading to Erie metropark 

Yeah, the Rec Center was done in the AA era. Mazda still has that building on Vreeland too, always wondered what they do there after the plant closed. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

Just now, jasonj80 said:

Yeah, the Rec Center was done in the AA era. Mazda still has that building on Vreeland too, always wondered what they do there after the plant closed. 

 

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think that building is being used anymore. I haven't seen anyone coming in or out of there in years. 

[jasonj80]

21 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think that building is being used anymore. I haven't seen anyone coming in or out of there in years. 

I was over there about 2 weeks ago (Going west on the smooth side of Vreeland) and there were like 6 newer Mazda's at the building. The Explorers were disappearing from the parking holding lot as well. I'll take a ride over there tomorrow or Friday when I'm down that way, I need to go to the feed store in Flat Rock. I'm interested now if there's anything there.

Edited November 7, 2019 by jasonj80

[fuzzymoomoo]

7 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

Going west on the smooth side of Vreeland

 

Lol there's an oxymoron 

 

i would say come say hi but chances are I'll be sleeping or doing errands. 

[jasonj80]

10 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Lol there's an oxymoron 

 

i would say come say hi but chances are I'll be sleeping or doing errands. 

I just wish they would put up a camera at Vreeland Rail Road crossing so I can see if the train is blocking it.

Edited November 7, 2019 by jasonj80

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 minute ago, jasonj80 said:

I just wish they would put up a camera at Vreeland Rail Road crossing so I can see if the train is blocking it.

 

Just go up Gibraltar

[jasonj80]

2 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Just go up Gibraltar

With Allen closed for the past 2 years I tend to just take 75 to Gibraltar; I just feel Gibraltar takes way longer for some reason. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

15 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

With Allen closed for the past 2 years I tend to just take 75 to Gibraltar; I just feel Gibraltar takes way longer for some reason. 

 

Oh it does unless it's 4am and all the lights are flashing yellow. No trains though. 

[deflep1]

On 11/5/2019 at 9:26 PM, Assimilator said:

FlatRock seems to be the proverbial hot potato at Ford, new leadership keeps tossing it around.  If we head into an economic recession within the next 4 years, Ford's capacity in the US will probably need to shed a plant and this becomes the obvious target primed for the next contract.  But Mustang's increasing exclusivity as their only car makes it expensive to move it so it's hard to say why they prefer to under-utilize the plant other than the likelihood that it's too expensive to make FRAP SUV and EV compatible alongside Mustang.  Ultimately if they operate the plant profitably, it doesn't matter and maybe Mustang is worth the trouble to them.

The Mustang is built on an unique platform and that has saved Flat Rock from losing it to another plant for a long time. The next generation Stang in 2023 will be built on the new CD6 platform, a widebody platform that all midsize vehicles will share. So Flat Rock could build mid size SUV's if they got a new paint shop and made alterations to the plant... OR, Ford could send the Mustang to a plant that makes mid size vehicles already. They love to leave us dangling, don't they?

[AH-HA]

12 hours ago, deflep1 said:

The Mustang is built on an unique platform and that has saved Flat Rock from losing it to another plant for a long time. The next generation Stang in 2023 will be built on the new CD6 platform, a widebody platform that all midsize vehicles will share. So Flat Rock could build mid size SUV's if they got a new paint shop and made alterations to the plant... OR, Ford could send the Mustang to a plant that makes mid size vehicles already. They love to leave us dangling, don't they?

That's a big negatory. CD6 has been abandoned and only left for Explorer/Aviator. Mustang soldiers on staying on the current platform next go around. D5 is the new Fox body.

[Assimilator]

Mustang is not getting the CD6 platform, but is sharing the "architecture" which is basically an extensive parts list.  Platforms are somewhat disambiguated with "Architecture" taking their place, but it's not the same.

 

It looks like Explorer/Aviator will be the only ones using the CD6 platform, originally it was conceived as a platform for Continental and Mustang but it was scrapped.  All other midsize crossovers are using their FWD C2 platform and architecture - Not to mention the BEV architecture which will become a big part of their performance and premium range which CD6 was intended to cover. 

 

I'm not sure what Widebody means in this case, it's not something I've seen used in recent decades beyond wide track modifications.

 

Mustang is getting a thoroughly redesigned platform however, with Hybrid V8 power a big part of that equation.  The fact it doesn't use CD6 really means nothing ultimately.  

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Assimilator