Ford And GM's Decision To Abandon Small Cars Is Already Costing Them

[coupe3w]

 

2 hours ago, snooter said:

Ok great..but consumer trash report ranks F series fords most unreliable vehicle and eco sport (which is built outside usa -romania, russia, india, thailand) fords most reliable (lexus, mazda, toyota top 3)...these type of awards are generally useless...what matters is wall street...and right now there is little faith in ford

Funny I don't see Ford mentioned as least reliable.....

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/new-cars-less-reliable-consumer-reports

[rperez817]

On 11/16/2019 at 6:05 PM, coupe3w said:

 

Funny I don't see Ford mentioned as least reliable.....

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/new-cars-less-reliable-consumer-reports

 

That's correct coupe3w sir, Ford ranks midpack, 16th out of 30 brands rated.

 

I think snooter is referring to the most and least reliable Ford models in CR's reliability survey. Not Ford's overall rank among all brands. I posted the charts showing both in this thread.

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by rperez817

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Cars may come back but that seems a long way off now, GM just closed three or four plants

so is in no rush to bring new cars to market.

 

I hate to say it but cars aren't coming back anytime soon-why would you want something that isn't as flexible as a CUV?

 

Take a look at evolution of cars from the 1920 til 1970s or so..Station Wagons where popular up to 1980s with the Taurus Wagon. The sedan as a shape as we know it today didn't evolve till the 1950s or so and was on its way to being replaced in the 1990s when SUVs came about. The modern CUV is a cross between a wagon without the stigma of it and the utility of an SUV. Cars pre 1950 where more like CUVs of today vs a Sedan made in the 1950-1960s when design ruled over function. 

Given the costs of cars, people are going to spend more on something they see meeting multiple needs like a pickup or CUV vs a sedan that is limited in fitting things into it. The MPG advantage is nil for sedans also these days. 

[jpd80]

12 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I hate to say it but cars aren't coming back anytime soon-why would you want something that isn't as flexible as a CUV?

 

Take a look at evolution of cars from the 1920 til 1970s or so..Station Wagons where popular up to 1980s with the Taurus Wagon. The sedan as a shape as we know it today didn't evolve till the 1950s or so and was on its way to being replaced in the 1990s when SUVs came about. The modern CUV is a cross between a wagon without the stigma of it and the utility of an SUV. Cars pre 1950 where more like CUVs of today vs a Sedan made in the 1950-1960s when design ruled over function. 

Given the costs of cars, people are going to spend more on something they see meeting multiple needs like a pickup or CUV vs a sedan that is limited in fitting things into it. The MPG advantage is nil for sedans also these days. 

A car is more than just a sedan.

That's why I said read Mike Simcoe's comments in the context of his history with Holden car design,

 he and mark Reuss held back Cadillac utilities to develop a string of expensive cars and made sure

that those designs couldn't easily be converted to Utilities.

 

As usual with GM, nothing is clean cut and i suspect the great cull was used to clear the decks so that

any future products would not be chained to old plants and old ideas. Personally, I think that cars are done

and any that survive will need to have a damned good business case or a benefactor like the Ford family.

 

In the background of all this, is Mike Simcoe's vested interest in getting the next modular RWD

architecture approved by his chiefs. I believe the decision and product envelope is being gathered

at the moment so it could be a signal to curry interest.....

 

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by jpd80

[Gurgeh]

There's one more reason bringing back demand for sedans could be challenging. I bought my first crossover, an Audi Q5, for visibility and safety reasons, not because I really wanted a crossover.  As the roadways became increasingly filled with trucks and SUVs it became increasingly difficult in my sedan to see traffic ahead. And then, in a matter of 6 months I was rear ended once by a truck and once by an SUV when I was stopped at a stop light. Their bumpers road higher than mine so I sustained significant body damage.  They suffered scratches to their bumpers.

 

Getting that process to reverse itself, all other things being equal, could be a difficult. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Gurgeh

[ANTAUS]

Autoblog

[T-dubz]

13 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I hate to say it but cars aren't coming back anytime soon-why would you want something that isn't as flexible as a CUV?

 

Take a look at evolution of cars from the 1920 til 1970s or so..Station Wagons where popular up to 1980s with the Taurus Wagon. The sedan as a shape as we know it today didn't evolve till the 1950s or so and was on its way to being replaced in the 1990s when SUVs came about. The modern CUV is a cross between a wagon without the stigma of it and the utility of an SUV. Cars pre 1950 where more like CUVs of today vs a Sedan made in the 1950-1960s when design ruled over function. 

Given the costs of cars, people are going to spend more on something they see meeting multiple needs like a pickup or CUV vs a sedan that is limited in fitting things into it. The MPG advantage is nil for sedans also these days. 

while I don’t disagree with your assessment, I would say that sedans have their place. The driving dynamics of sedans are so much better than SUVs or trucks. Zipping in and out of traffic is easier. Lower center of gravity means better handling. The trunk of a sedan meets the needs of most people 90% of the time. Can it hold groceries? Can it hold golf clubs? Yes. Can it hold a tv or a piece of plywood? No, but how often do you buy things like that to begin with?

 

maybe the price of cars is high because people are buying cuv/SUVs that they don’t actually need. If they were buying sedans, the average price would be much lower. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by T-dubz

[rperez817]

20 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

The driving dynamics of sedans are so much better than SUVs or trucks. Zipping in and out of traffic is easier. Lower center of gravity means better handling. The trunk of a sedan meets the needs of most people 90% of the time. Can it hold groceries? Can it hold golf clubs? Yes. Can it hold a tv or a piece of plywood? No, but how often do you buy things like that to begin with?

 

All good points T-dubz sir. You're thinking about automobiles in an intelligent, rational manner. But most consumers in the U.S. don't think that way when shopping for a vehicle. If they did, regular hatchbacks and wagons would be a lot more popular in the U.S. market.

 

The increased popularity of CUV/SUV and pickup trucks is a victory for sales and marketing people at automakers and car dealerships. Convincing consumers to buy products that they don't actually need is beneficial for those businesses.

[akirby]

36 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

while I don’t disagree with your assessment, I would say that sedans have their place. The driving dynamics of sedans are so much better than SUVs or trucks. Zipping in and out of traffic is easier. Lower center of gravity means better handling. The trunk of a sedan meets the needs of most people 90% of the time. Can it hold groceries? Can it hold golf clubs? Yes. Can it hold a tv or a piece of plywood? No, but how often do you buy things like that to begin with?

 

maybe the price of cars is high because people are buying cuv/SUVs that they don’t actually need. If they were buying sedans, the average price would be much lower. 

Car prices aren’t too high.  They’re cheaper than crossovers.  And it’s not just the cargo capacity.  Most people prefer the higher seating position.  I had a fusion for 5 years and wife had an edge and mkx.  They drive the same unless you’re pushing it really hard through the twisties.  It really just comes down to personal preference.  There isn’t much profit on the lower end and not enough volume on the higher end so mfrs will be choosing to invest in other places given the opportunity.

[akirby]

15 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

All good points T-dubz sir. You're thinking about automobiles in an intelligent, rational manner. But most consumers in the U.S. don't think that way when shopping for a vehicle. If they did, regular hatchbacks and wagons would be a lot more popular in the U.S. market.

 

The increased popularity of CUV/SUV and pickup trucks is a victory for sales and marketing people at automakers and car dealerships. Convincing consumers to buy products that they don't actually need is beneficial for those businesses.

And do you “need” a jaguar or Tesla?  Of course not.  A fusion energi would work just as well 95% of the time. 
 

It’s unbelievably arrogant to tell other people that their personal preferences aren’t valid.

[fuzzymoomoo]

56 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

maybe the price of cars is high because people are buying cuv/SUVs that they don’t actually need. 

 

To that point, in the parking lot I park in at work (which is a very small secondary lot), there's 3 Explorers, 3 Flexes (including mine when I don't drive the Fusion to work), 2 Expeditions, 1 Navigator and 1 Chevy Tahoe. To my knowledge none of them except for myself and one of the people who drives one of the Expeditions has enough kids/grandkids to warrant having a vehicle that large, and if they do they’re grown and living on their own. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 minute ago, akirby said:

And do you “need” a jaguar or Tesla?  Of course not.  A fusion energi would work just as well 95% of the time. 
 

It’s unbelievably arrogant to tell other people that their personal preferences aren’t valid.

 

Im not begrudging people of their choice, I'm sure they have their reasons. I just think it's unnecessary to have a vehicle that large for just solo commuting. Literally the only reason I do so now is because if I don't I'll run out of miles on my Fusion by July and my lease doesn't end until May 2021. 

[akirby]

17 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Im not begrudging people of their choice, I'm sure they have their reasons. I just think it's unnecessary to have a vehicle that large for just solo commuting. Literally the only reason I do so now is because if I don't I'll run out of miles on my Fusion by July and my lease doesn't end until May 2021. 

A - you don’t know how people use their vehicles outside of work.  Maybe they regularly haul stuff or people on the weekends and they don’t want a second vehicle just for commuting.  Kids aren’t the only reason.

 

B - why did you buy a focus when a fiesta would have been just as good and smaller and cheaper?

 

Sorry but it irks me when people pass judgement on other people’s choices.

[T-dubz]

31 minutes ago, akirby said:

Car prices aren’t too high.  They’re cheaper than crossovers.  And it’s not just the cargo capacity.  Most people prefer the higher seating position.  I had a fusion for 5 years and wife had an edge and mkx.  They drive the same unless you’re pushing it really hard through the twisties.  It really just comes down to personal preference.  There isn’t much profit on the lower end and not enough volume on the higher end so mfrs will be choosing to invest in other places given the opportunity.

sorry, when I said cars in that sentence, I meant vehicles in general.

 

i do tend to drive a lot faster than most people. I have to slow down in my escape when taking curves or I feel like I’m going to tip over, in my fusion I could give it more gas and power through the curves.

[akirby]

1 minute ago, T-dubz said:

i do tend to drive a lot faster than most people. I have to slow down in my escape when taking curves or I feel like I’m going to tip over, in my fusion I could give it more gas and power through the curves.

Understood but you’re in a very small minority of drivers.  I also think you’d be pleasantly surprised in an edge sport or st.  
 

Like I said there are plenty of folks who prefer sedans.   Just not as many as there used to be.

 

I also have a theory on why crossovers are so much more popular.  SUVs hit in the early 90s with the Explorer.  Crossovers hit a decade later.  Today’s 16-30 yr olds grew up in households with more utilities so they naturally favor them.  Certainly applies to my kids who drive an escape and a Subaru Forester.

[rperez817]

39 minutes ago, akirby said:

It’s unbelievably arrogant to tell other people that their personal preferences aren’t valid.

 

And even more arrogant to accuse posters of "telling other people that their personal preferences aren't valid". None of the posts in this thread from T-dubz, fuzzymoomoo, or me did anything of that sort.

[fuzzymoomoo]

9 minutes ago, akirby said:

A - you don’t know how people use their vehicles outside of work.  Maybe they regularly haul stuff or people on the weekends and they don’t want a second vehicle just for commuting.  Kids aren’t the only reason.

 

B - why did you buy a focus when a fiesta would have been just as good and smaller and cheaper?

 

Sorry but it irks me when people pass judgement on other people’s choices.

 

I'm not judging at all, all I'm saying is I don't get it. 

 

I got got my first Focus when I actually needed a truck or SUV (it's not easy to fit a 30 case beer order in a 2 door Focus) but I wanted a manual and wasn't going to settle. The second Focus was my first brand new car ever and we knew we were going to have kids before the lease was up so we opted for the bigger back seat. Otherwise we would have had zero problems with a Fiesta ST. 

[Gurgeh]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

All good points T-dubz sir. You're thinking about automobiles in an intelligent, rational manner. But most consumers in the U.S. don't think that way when shopping for a vehicle. If they did, regular hatchbacks and wagons would be a lot more popular in the U.S. market.

 

The increased popularity of CUV/SUV and pickup trucks is a victory for sales and marketing people at automakers and car dealerships. Convincing consumers to buy products that they don't actually need is beneficial for those businesses.

There's another reason people fled station wagons and large family cars for minivans (initially) and, increasingly, SUVs/crossovers and 4-door trucks. Automakers just couldn't afford to keep building them thanks to CAFE. 

 

See for instance: 

https://www.futureofcapitalism.com/2019/07/how-regulation-killed-the-station-wagon

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

.........And it’s not just the cargo capacity.  Most people prefer the higher seating position.......

 

There's a lot to this.  Many years back, the police department in my small town used Chevy Impalas.  I talked to a cop one day and asked how he liked the Impala.  Overall he liked it, but said it was too low to the ground, which made entry and egress difficult.  He'd prefer something that was higher.  Today, all the local cops drive Explorer PI's.

[T-dubz]

17 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

There's a lot to this.  Many years back, the police department in my small town used Chevy Impalas.  I talked to a cop one day and asked how he liked the Impala.  Overall he liked it, but said it was too low to the ground, which made entry and egress difficult.  He'd prefer something that was higher.  Today, all the local cops drive Explorer PI's.

EVs will help out with this. They can have the higher seating position but still have a lower center of gravity due to the skateboard platform.

[AGR]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

And do you “need” a jaguar or Tesla?  Of course not.  A fusion energi would work just as well 95% of the time. 
 

It’s unbelievably arrogant to tell other people that their personal preferences aren’t valid.

 

It also is hypocritical for someone to post that, and then turn around and do the same.

I'm with T-dubz, I drive a bit on the fast side and want a car with good handling. And my Focus hatchback is every bit as flexible as any CUV.

Edited November 17, 2019 by AGR

[rperez817]

53 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

There's another reason people fled station wagons and large family cars for minivans (initially) and, increasingly, SUVs/crossovers and 4-door trucks. Automakers just couldn't afford to keep building them thanks to CAFE. 

 

See for instance: 

https://www.futureofcapitalism.com/2019/07/how-regulation-killed-the-station-wagon

 

Thanks for sharing that Gurgeh sir. Regulatory stuff like CAFE, and the lobbying that goes with them, always have unintended consequences.

[AGR]

3 hours ago, ANTAUS said:

Autoblog

That will likely be me soon. If I buy a Ford, it will a used one. Otherwise, it looks like a Volkswagen or (less likely) Mazda will be in my garage. There's a tiny chance I could buy an Escape. The other Japanese and Korean compacts are either boring, took a thrashing with the ugly stick, or both.

[fuzzymoomoo]

20 minutes ago, AGR said:

And my Focus hatchback is every bit as flexible as any CUV.

 

Until you need to put 2 car seats in it 

[mackinaw]

36 minutes ago, AGR said:

 And my Focus hatchback is every bit as flexible as any CUV.

 

Agreed.  That's precisely why we bought a Focus hatchback back in 2012.  The Focus goes next year though, and will be replaced by either a new Ranger or Escape.