akirby Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 1 hour ago, coupe3w said: Akirby asked a question and I answered it. Then I get thrown under the bus for stating why I hate CUV's. I overreacted with sarcasm to what appeared to me to be an illogical reason. Sorry to derail the discussion. But for the record I would never argue about someone’s personal preference. There is a big difference between “I prefer sedans” and “I hate that other people drive them”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 23 minutes ago, Harley Lover said: Still waiting for the quote, Spock. It's obvious you can't produce it. It was already explained. If you can’t see the direct connection I don’t know what to tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 1 hour ago, brucelinc said: I don't hate SUVs or CUVs. I just have no use for a vehicle that attempts to combine sport, utility, comfort, style and other things into one package. From my perspective, SUVs or CUVs do not do any of those things particularly well. I prefer having a sporty car for fun and style, an upscale and well-equipped sedan for comfortable travel and a 4X4 pick-up for hauling stuff and driving when the roads are snowy or icy. For me, those are the right tools for each job. I have never been one to follow the trends when it comes to buying vehicles so having an SUV just because they are so popular at the moment doesn't tempt me at all. That's a great solution for someone who can afford to own 3 vehicles. As you note, a crossover is a compromise that suits many well. They have more visibility and utility than a sporty coupe or a road-trip sedan. They can have more comfort, style and drivability than a truck. They can be good highway cruisers. It is a compromise that not everyone would prefer (some just needing the greater utility of a full-sized truck or not needing that utility at all and just wanting a sporty car, or wanting maximum highway cruising with a low center of gravity in a big sedan). I owned nothing cut sedans or coupes until I bought my Q5 in 2016. I now drive a Nautilus, and don't see myself going back to sedans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 4 hours ago, akirby said: To say you hate them because you can’t see around them is illogical because 1 - you don’t need to see around other vehicles to drive safely and 2 - there are all those other types of vehicles you also can’t see around. You can only really see around vehicles smaller than yours. Thus the sarcasm. In the "old days", when you were backing out of a parking spot (shopping center), you could ease back far enough to get past the roof line of the car next to you to see what was coming. Now, you damn near have to back out blind because of all the SUV's. I think that's a safety issue. When you are making a left turn & there is an SUV in the opposite turn lane, you cannot see past them either. Again, less than safe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 My first car was an early 80s Station Wagon (it was a hand me down) That thing was a beast. Originally they had planned on buying a conversion van, but the dealer screwed around with the sale, and they walked out. That thing was even more of a beast. Ever see a 70s “personal luxury coupe”? Did you guys grow up in Europe? Where was this world of small cars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarneyFord Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 When in our older Civic we got pushed around at the rear tail light by a dump truck at low speed. He couldn’t see the sedan. He thought he had dropped a gear and had no idea we were there. After that we got a taller CUV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 2 hours ago, barney9014 said: When in our older Civic we got pushed around at the rear tail light by a dump truck at low speed. He couldn’t see the sedan. He thought he had dropped a gear and had no idea we were there. After that we got a taller CUV. Because CUV's never get rear ended . "Sarcasm remark" LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarneyFord Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 1 hour ago, coupe3w said: Because CUV's never get rear ended . "Sarcasm remark" LOL So far so good. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OX1 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 16 hours ago, AGR said: For me, I like the lower center of gravity that cars have. I like good handling. This........... Don't hate SUV's, woman has a 17 Escape. But no matter what you do to a SUV/CUV, same vehicle will handle better as a sedan. Bought a base fusion sport so it wouldn't have sunroof weight. Would it be a large affect, probably not, but I wanted lightest weight, lowest COG, I could get (also saved 1000's on other crap I didn't want). Probably going Stinger next, which I think are ugly, but it checks all the boxes and will be cheap soon as A, "sedans aren't selling", and B, "IC cars won't be worth anything soon". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 I like the stinger. See a fair amount of them on the road. One day I had two in front of me on the way to work, both the same color (putty grey), one had the typical KIA oval badge the other had no KIA badge and just a larger Stinger badge in script. I’m assuming it was a model year change and was a smart move if so. There’s also a Genesis version of it now too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 hour ago, OX1 said: Don't hate SUV's, woman has a 17 Escape. But no matter what you do to a SUV/CUV, same vehicle will handle better as a sedan. Bought a base fusion sport so it wouldn't have sunroof weight. Would it be a large affect, probably not, but I wanted lightest weight, lowest COG, I could get (also saved 1000's on other crap I didn't want). The thing is many people are inserting the personal likes into a market place where 80% or higher of the actual buyers look at their cars as appliances or needed inconvenience to survive in the world. An Escape (along with most other CUVs) will meet 95% of driving conditions and maneuverability needs of an average driver. Its like people bitching about all season performance tires vs summer only tires. I drive my car all year long and maybe 1% or less of the time it will see a track-so I'm supposed to give up something just to get 1% better in something?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, OX1 said: This........... Don't hate SUV's, woman has a 17 Escape. But no matter what you do to a SUV/CUV, same vehicle will handle better as a sedan. Bought a base fusion sport so it wouldn't have sunroof weight. Would it be a large affect, probably not, but I wanted lightest weight, lowest COG, I could get (also saved 1000's on other crap I didn't want). Probably going Stinger next, which I think are ugly, but it checks all the boxes and will be cheap soon as A, "sedans aren't selling", and B, "IC cars won't be worth anything soon". Yep...foeign made hatch ...luv it...1/2 to 1/3 cost of lectric ?ustang.....dont need any high cost suv for her commute to work...we average 13mpg on our explorer's in the fleet...foreign hatch gets 33 city and 40 on the freeway....we will be in foreign cars from now on....trucks will be ford or ram depending on who has the better deal.. Edited December 2, 2019 by snooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 4 hours ago, snooter said: Yep...foeign made hatch ...luv it...1/2 to 1/3 cost of lectric ?ustang.....dont need any high cost suv for her commute to work...we average 13mpg on our explorer's in the fleet...foreign hatch gets 33 city and 40 on the freeway....we will be in foreign cars from now on....trucks will be ford or ram depending on who has the better deal.. Very little difference between an Escape hybrid and that foreign hatch. Escape probably gets better city mpg. Might be more expensive though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OX1 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, akirby said: Very little difference between an Escape hybrid and that foreign hatch. Escape probably gets better city mpg. Might be more expensive though. If we ares still talking Stinger, you'd have to compare it to an Edge really. NVH of Escape feels like a bucket of crap, compared to my Fusion, and Stinger is only maybe a hair under Fusion. 11 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The thing is many people are inserting the personal likes into a market place where 80% or higher of the actual buyers look at their cars as appliances or needed inconvenience to survive in the world. An Escape (along with most other CUVs) will meet 95% of driving conditions and maneuverability needs of an average driver. Its like people bitching about all season performance tires vs summer only tires. I drive my car all year long and maybe 1% or less of the time it will see a track-so I'm supposed to give up something just to get 1% better in something?! I get it, Ford needs to make money first. It just won't be off me for my next car. And if all the less expensive brands ditch cars, I'll go upmarket (in price, would not be looking forward to downgrade in reliability, but so be it). I still may replace Escape for a new Bronco eventually, for no other reason than I'm a bronco maniac. My PS4S's handle (and brake) better in the rain than any other tire I've ever had. About 95% as good as dry (not hydroplaning, but wet surface). Much better than the same size AS3+ I have for winter (on same stock rim). Not sure what kind of fairy dust Mich sprinkles on those things, but for me, it's way more than 1% just due to that. Edited December 2, 2019 by OX1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 1 hour ago, OX1 said: If we ares still talking Stinger, you'd have to compare it to an Edge really. No, he was talking about a focus/fiesta competitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OX1 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, akirby said: No, he was talking about a focus/fiesta competitor. OK, thanks........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Back to the original topic..... Ford is still building the C2 Focus and they're designing a C2 based Mondeo replacement. If the market shifts (not likely) they still have vehicles that could easily be brought here once Mexico is converted to C2 (Louisville is already converted). Sounds like OAP will also be C2 with the new Edge and FRAP is available. It's not like they're killing them and would have to start over from scratch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, akirby said: ....It's not like they're killing them and would have to start over from scratch. Maybe they should have.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Just now, twintornados said: Maybe they should have.... Well actually they already did with C2. I can almost guarantee C2 is a lot less expensive than CD4 (and hopefully lighter). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 I hate CUVs because they're ugly, inefficient, ill handling vehicles that dominate the market because the buyers think that jacked up station wagons with body cladding are somehow more expressive of their personal style or rugged individualism than the wagons, minivans, and SUVs that they replaced. The whole world is driving AMC Eagles and they're oblivious to how stupid that is. I hate them because manufacturers like Ford are pushing them on consumers who don't want them because they can't compete in the segments that those people want. I hate them because manufacturers like Ford are stupid enough to believe that this isn't a fashion trend that will swing on a dime, just like it did with minivans, just like it did with big SUVs. "But they can always bring the cars back," say the apologists. The last time Ford let their product mix get this far out of wack it took a decade to fix and they had to mortgage the company. All the attention to saving their asses in that moment meant that they still couldn't fix the systemic problems that leave them unable to compete in those segments that they worked so hard to fix. So less than a decade later the only treatment that they can think of is to amputate. Now they take on the Japanese and Koreans as the one legged man in the ass kicking competition. But they're confident that the corner that they've backed into is safe and they can always get out of they need to. All of that said, people are free to buy what they want, just as I'm free to think that their choices are foolish. I'll shop with the makers who serve the segments that I'm interested in. Someone here responded to a similar remark with a "Bye, Felicia." That's pretty funny in a forum dedicated to a manufacturer who has been loosing market share for decades. While you're being flip, get comfortable with these. "Sayonara, Totyota." "Ciao, FCA." "Annyeong, Hyundai." 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, Roland said: I hate CUVs because they're ugly, inefficient, ill handling vehicles that dominate the market because the buyers think that jacked up station wagons with body cladding are somehow more expressive of their personal style or rugged individualism than the wagons, minivans, and SUVs that they replaced. The whole world is driving AMC Eagles and they're oblivious to how stupid that is In the grand scheme of things, all the thing your talking about don't resonate with the typical buyer-just take a look at Toyota's success and a lesser degree Honda. The Accord and Camry where some of the most boring products out there by your criteria. Don't mistake your options for everyone else's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 No issues with not liking them - that’s your personal preference. I could say you’re stupid for driving a car because utilities get about the same fuel mileage but is easier to ingress and egress and has fare more cargo capacity and people capacity for 3 row versions. But that would also be stupid because each has pros and cons and people are free to choose whatever they like based on their preferences. You put a premium on handling but the majority of buyers don’t care about that. My wife has never taken a corner fast enough to make a difference. How about we just respect each other’s preferences and stop judging? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 20 minutes ago, Roland said: I hate CUVs because they're ugly, inefficient, ill handling vehicles that dominate the market because the buyers think that jacked up station wagons with body cladding are somehow more expressive of their personal style or rugged individualism than the wagons, minivans, and SUVs that they replaced. The whole world is driving AMC Eagles and they're oblivious to how stupid that is. I hate them because manufacturers like Ford are pushing them on consumers who don't want them because they can't compete in the segments that those people want. I hate them because manufacturers like Ford are stupid enough to believe that this isn't a fashion trend that will swing on a dime, just like it did with minivans, just like it did with big SUVs. You're thinking about cars and light trucks in a rational manner Roland sir. That's good. But automotive retailing doesn't work that way. It is a fashion oriented industry. Automakers and dealerships constantly figure out ways to get people to buy stuff that they don't need. Or in many cases, stuff they didn't even want at first. Just the nature of the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Manufacturers aren't pushing anything on consumers - they're responding to what consumers want to buy. Edge gets 24 mpg while Fusion gets 27. Not a big difference. I don't understand why some people just can't comprehend that some of us like crossovers just because we like them, not because we're brainwashed or trying to impress someone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 3 hours ago, akirby said: Back to the original topic..... Ford is still building the C2 Focus and they're designing a C2 based Mondeo replacement. If the market shifts (not likely) they still have vehicles that could easily be brought here once Mexico is converted to C2 (Louisville is already converted). Sounds like OAP will also be C2 with the new Edge and FRAP is available. It's not like they're killing them and would have to start over from scratch. In the wake of Ford's decision to once again abandon the US passenger car market because it was 'too hard', I came up with this theory: You get like 20 or maybe 30 years of your life where people pay attention to you, professionally. Say from your mid 30s to your mid 50s, give or take. Before that you're too young, and after that you're too old. So stupidity tends to run on a 20-30 year cycle (i.e. the S&L crisis ---> mortgage crisis). During your 20-30 years of influence, you can pretty much keep people from doing really stupid stuff that happened when you were getting started in your professional career. But by the time you get close to retirement age, you've got younger employees coming along that don't really remember the stupidity of the past, and they have all sorts of reasons why this time it's different (but it never really is). At least this time around, as akirby points out, Ford has global architectures, so it'll be easier for them to undo this particular bit of stupidity once it bites them in the ass. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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