bzcat Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 I'm not worried about Escape or Explorer sales. They will catch up and normalize once dealers are flushed with inventory. The thing to watch next year is how the new models will (or not) replace the departing cars. Baby Bronco is going to be a key test of Hackett's strategy of moving up the value chain and dominate the niche instead of pushing volume on the commodity end. And I still maintain that Ford has too few CUV models. I like the Escpae/Baby Bronco strategy but there seems to be no plan to follow that up in other segments in the US. They need something like Puma to augment EcoSport and a junior size Escape to compete with Compass, Rogue Sport, Crosstrek, Eclipse, and upcoming Chevy Trailblazer, Mazda CX-30, and VW Tharu. And I don't know the timing on Mondeo/Fusion Active CUV but Ford could really use that sooner rather than later to compliment Edge and Bronco. And how about an Explorer coupe? Chop a couple of inches off the end, drop the 3rd row and add a lower roof line... Something like Audi Q8 vs. Q7. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 (edited) 37 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Yeah its called the baby Bronco... Exactly. Ford splitting the Escape market in two requires softer styling for it and the chunky/edgy style for the baby Bronco. and of course, throw in a bit of retro look and people will pay more for what they really want............... As bzcat said above, this is Ford not building 40,000 Escapes to compete with RAV4 or Equinox but offering two different products to better cover the market (unnecessary duplication in Mulally speak) Edited December 6, 2019 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 2 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The Explorer actually outsells both of them-combined. 15K Explorers vs 5,268 Palasaids and 6,824 Tellurides Are the Police versions separated out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 2 hours ago, snooter said: Rebates on f150 here are 15k off on some f150's That’s total discount not the rebate. Rebate is only around $8k. It also includes dealer discount (which you always get) and “package discounts) which are already built into the MSRP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, CKNSLS said: Are the Police versions separated out? Ford reports them separately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 17 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Exactly. Ford splitting the Escape market in two requires softer styling for it and the chunky/edgy style for the baby Bronco. and of course, throw in a bit of retro look and people will pay more for what they really want............... As bzcat said above, this is Ford not building 40,000 Escapes to compete with RAV4 or Equinox but offering two different products to better cover the market (unnecessary duplication in Mulally speak) Prices will be higher and incentives and sales lower until inventory is built up. We saw that with Ranger too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Ford reports them separately Only at quarterly sales calls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader 10 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 29 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Exactly. Ford splitting the Escape market in two requires softer styling for it and the chunky/edgy style for the baby Bronco. and of course, throw in a bit of retro look and people will pay more for what they really want............... As bzcat said above, this is Ford not building 40,000 Escapes to compete with RAV4 or Equinox but offering two different products to better cover the market (unnecessary duplication in Mulally speak) It’s a good strategy but Ford has to execute with a desirable Escape that has at least some visual excitement. It’s almost as if Ford deliberately came up with a boring, generic design to push buyers to the more expensive Baby Bronco. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 1 minute ago, Trader 10 said: It’s a good strategy but Ford has to execute with a desirable Escape that has at least some visual excitement. It’s almost as if Ford deliberately came up with a boring, generic design to push buyers to the more expensive Baby Bronco. Yes, perhaps the styling is more to European tastes that Ford is willing to endure in the US knowing that baby Bronco presents as a completely different styled vehicle, the price will be higher but again, Ford testing the hungry desire for "Bronco" in a compact product... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 1 hour ago, bzcat said: I'm not worried about Escape or Explorer sales. They will catch up and normalize once dealers are flushed with inventory. The thing to watch next year is how the new models will (or not) replace the departing cars. Baby Bronco is going to be a key test of Hackett's strategy of moving up the value chain and dominate the niche instead of pushing volume on the commodity end. And I still maintain that Ford has too few CUV models. I like the Escpae/Baby Bronco strategy but there seems to be no plan to follow that up in other segments in the US. They need something like Puma to augment EcoSport and a junior size Escape to compete with Compass, Rogue Sport, Crosstrek, Eclipse, and upcoming Chevy Trailblazer, Mazda CX-30, and VW Tharu. And I don't know the timing on Mondeo/Fusion Active CUV but Ford could really use that sooner rather than later to compliment Edge and Bronco. And how about an Explorer coupe? Chop a couple of inches off the end, drop the 3rd row and add a lower roof line... Something like Audi Q8 vs. Q7. Im not sure if adding more smaller cuvs is the answer. Where I live, you hardly see any vehicle from that segment on the road. I think you are on to something with the chopped explorer though. The VW atlas cross sport looks much better than the regular atlas. A two row explorer with 5 or 6” cut off the back might be pretty cool, especially in st trim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 So we dump affordable cars and add affordable small utes (never mind fords struggle in both segments)...that runs counter to belief high atp's are the path to nirvana... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, snooter said: So we dump affordable cars and add affordable small utes (never mind fords struggle in both segments)...that runs counter to belief high atp's are the path to nirvana... That’s where the volume is especially globally and you have more vehicles sharing the C2 platform. And it’s not ATPs - it’s profit margin. You can get a 8% margin on most vehicles if it’s done correctly. Edited December 6, 2019 by akirby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 1 hour ago, T-dubz said: A two row explorer with 5 or 6” cut off the back might be pretty cool, especially in st trim. You realize that you've just described a CD6 Edge.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 6 hours ago, jpd80 said: I believe that Ford is going too far with trading off even more sales to higher pricing and that's starting to come back and bite them in the ass as buyers are now more willing to cross shop. Ford is not a premium brand but it's almost like Hackett is set on aligning Ford's pricing that way and dropping base trims. On another note, F Series had over 72,000 sales last month, even with a new Super Duty change happening Ford management is doing what it's been doing for years now... packaging vehicle models and pricing them to maximize profits even when doing so jeopardizes the company long term by continuing to lose market share. Unfortunately, they have little concern about losing market share or retaining existing customers and fail to realize that once they lose a customer to the competition it'll be very difficult to get that customer back because of the declining brand loyalty to Ford. It's going to take some time to see how the 2020 Escape, Explorer and the rest of the new models perform sales-wise. Unfortunately, Ford is now letting the Fusion die sales-wise with little marketing or incentive support. We used to sell an average of 15 Fusions per month and delivered none last month because of reduced incentives. We have 22 in stock and 28 available including scheduled orders. Escape sales were soft last month as was Explorer and F-150 for our dealership. The bright spot has been Edge which has been strong. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang84isu Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 (edited) I think this month is a precursor to what we are going to continue seeing if the economy goes into recession in 2020. Relying solely on high ATP SUVs is a mistake, especially when consumers become price sensitive in a downturn. Hopefully the new Baby Bronco and Bronco can stem some of that loss, but I don't have a lot of confidence in Ford lately with the botched Explorer/Aviator launches, Hackett's lack of clarity on the turnaround, and Ford's general performance in the market. Ford is likely going to permanently lose market share to Asian/German manufacturers who continue to invest in sedans. I'm one of those that will likely have to look elsewhere this spring, as much as I hate to do it because I have been loyal to Ford for the last 15 years. I don't like crossovers though, and unfortunately Ford has given me no choice but to look elsewhere. I am glad to see Lincoln continuing to do well. 10,850 is the highest monthly total I can remember in a long time...especially for November. In December months they usually crack 10K, but I can't remember the last time I saw a 10K total in November. Edited December 6, 2019 by mustang84isu 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 40 minutes ago, ice-capades said: Ford management is doing what it's been doing for years now... packaging vehicle models and pricing them to maximize profits even when doing so jeopardizes the company long term by continuing to lose market share. Unfortunately, they have little concern about losing market share or retaining existing customers and fail to realize that once they lose a customer to the competition it'll be very difficult to get that customer back because of the declining brand loyalty to Ford. It's going to take some time to see how the 2020 Escape, Explorer and the rest of the new models perform sales-wise. I'm concerned that Ford is taking Mulally's sales strategy too much to the high side of pricing and and missing the sweet spot for sales-production- return, it's like they're going too far in the wrong direction and not producing enough of the right trim mix that buyers want. Quote Unfortunately, Ford is now letting the Fusion die sales-wise with little marketing or incentive support. We used to sell an average of 15 Fusions per month and delivered none last month because of reduced incentives. We have 22 in stock and 28 available including scheduled orders. Escape sales were soft last month as was Explorer and F-150 for our dealership. The bright spot has been Edge which has been strong. The mistake I see here is in letting the Fusion name become tarnished, they should be keeping the trim and sales mix strong to the end and then step onto the Fusion crossover. I know the agenda was set years ago but by trashing the current Fusion, they are setting up a tough launch for the new vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 The new stuff hasn’t even arrived yet. What Ford has today is transitional. New products on the way: bronco, baby Bronco, short c utility and trucklet, Mach-E, 2 Rivian based crossovers, new Ranger, F-150 hybrid and BEV, mustang hybrid, new edge and Nautilus. And I’m sure there are more we don’t know about. It May or may not work but it’s silly to judge the strategy before it arrives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, akirby said: The new stuff hasn’t even arrived yet. What Ford has today is transitional. New products on the way: bronco, baby Bronco, short c utility and trucklet, Mach-E, 2 Rivian based crossovers, new Ranger, F-150 hybrid and BEV, mustang hybrid, new edge and Nautilus. And I’m sure there are more we don’t know about. It May or may not work but it’s silly to judge the strategy before it arrives. What I'm talking about is what Ford is doing now, they are jacking up prices on new products like Explorer and Escape as well as many of the refreshes as they fall due, those higher prices are not being supported by good lease packages. IMO, that's critical to giving buyers expected / competitive repayments. All I'm saying is that we should be wary and that simply delivering new good product and asking higher prices is not a slam dunk guarantee for success...they have to bring buyers along on the journey. Edited December 6, 2019 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 2 hours ago, mustang84isu said: I think this month is a precursor to what we are going to continue seeing if the economy goes into recession in 2020. Relying solely on high ATP SUVs is a mistake, especially when consumers become price sensitive in a downturn. Hopefully the new Baby Bronco and Bronco can stem some of that loss, but I don't have a lot of confidence in Ford lately with the botched Explorer/Aviator launches, Hackett's lack of clarity on the turnaround, and Ford's general performance in the market. Ford is likely going to permanently lose market share to Asian/German manufacturers who continue to invest in sedans. I'm one of those that will likely have to look elsewhere this spring, as much as I hate to do it because I have been loyal to Ford for the last 15 years. I don't like crossovers though, and unfortunately Ford has given me no choice but to look elsewhere. I am glad to see Lincoln continuing to do well. 10,850 is the highest monthly total I can remember in a long time...especially for November. In December months they usually crack 10K, but I can't remember the last time I saw a 10K total in November. Bronco won't make any significant difference until well into 2021 because its launching so late into 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 40 minutes ago, jpd80 said: What I'm talking about is what Ford is doing now, they are jacking up prices on new products like Explorer and Escape as well as many of the refreshes as they fall due, those higher prices are not being supported by good lease packages. IMO, that's critical to giving buyers expected / competitive repayments. Thats exactly why we went with the ancient and now discontinued Flex over a 202 Explorer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 (edited) Ford thinking it is a premium euro brand is like the 400lb kid thinking he/she can compete in gymnastics...granted the dance routine may be something to watch Edited December 6, 2019 by snooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, snooter said: Ford thinking it is a premium euro brand is like the 400lb kid thinking he/she can compete in gymnastics...granted the dance routine may be something to watch It's fine to aspire to becoming a more premium brand but it must be backed up by products that justify those prices, simply chopping the base/entry trim and considering the rest as more premium is a very "Buick" approach to customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 Whats a "buick"..but yeah its become very apparent how the approach to margin profit is being carried out...i liken it more to cadillac taking a vega and putting a caddy badge on it...hey thats high margin biz model right there....on a more serious note this lack of perceived value in ford products could have legs for the next 10 years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, snooter said: Whats a "buick".. A GM approach to faux luxury, only saved by the fact that the Buick badge corresponds to the Chinese symbol for good luck.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 6 hours ago, jpd80 said: The mistake I see here is in letting the Fusion name become tarnished, they should be keeping the trim and sales mix strong to the end and then step onto the Fusion crossover. The Fusion is going to be out of production in the next 7 months-how are they letting the name become tarnished when its basically becoming the Crown Vic of its time for the past year or so before getting replaced most likely in late 2021 after it dies next summer? 5 hours ago, jpd80 said: What I'm talking about is what Ford is doing now, they are jacking up prices on new products like Explorer and Escape as well as many of the refreshes as they fall due, those higher prices are not being supported by good lease packages. IMO, that's critical to giving buyers expected / competitive repayments Pricing of the Explorer and Escape is comparable to its competition-maybe Ford had previous products priced too cheaply? Outside of the Hyundai and Kia models in the Explorers case, it matches up fine with the competition price wise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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