Ford November 2019 Approx. Sales

[T-dubz]

9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

You realize that you've just described a CD6 Edge....

well the explorer is a bit wider so it gives you some more elbow room, and I was thinking more of a raked roof so it’s more coupe like. I haven’t been a fan of the edge for a while now. In my opinion it’s ford’s “appliance” cuv. Nothing special about it, and it doesn’t offend anyone but does get anyone excited either.

[akirby]

7 hours ago, jpd80 said:

, those higher prices are not being supported by good

lease packages. IMO, that's critical to giving buyers expected / competitive repayments.

Good lease packages means subsidies which are just rebates in disguise.  They’re slightly better because there is a good chance to sell another new vehicle in 3 years but it’s still discounting and eats into profit margins.

 

There is a sweet spot of pricing where it’s competitive and keeps the factories running at an efficient level without big rebates.

 

Ford may have gone too far on Escape and Explorer - maybe they’re testing the waters and will adjust pricing going forward.  Or maybe the higher prices are working as intended.  

[HotRunrGuy]

1 hour ago, T-dubz said:

well the explorer is a bit wider so it gives you some more elbow room, and I was thinking more of a raked roof so it’s more coupe like. I haven’t been a fan of the edge for a while now. In my opinion it’s ford’s “appliance” cuv. Nothing special about it, and it doesn’t offend anyone but does get anyone excited either.

 

We've had 3 Explorers, and went with an Edge about 6 months ago. We no longer needed the 3rd row, my wife is very happy with the Edge, and its' driveablity and content.

 

HRG

[akirby]

10 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

We've had 3 Explorers, and went with an Edge about 6 months ago. We no longer needed the 3rd row, my wife is very happy with the Edge, and its' driveablity and content.

 

HRG

We had 2 explorers, an expedition and an aviator before switching to an edge in 2008 and a MKX in 2016.   I wouldn’t mind a little extra room in the Explorer/aviator but wife likes the edge/nautilus size and it works for me.

[Gnostic]

2 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

We've had 3 Explorers, and went with an Edge about 6 months ago. We no longer needed the 3rd row, my wife is very happy with the Edge, and its' driveablity and content.

 

HRG

 

My brother went looking at Explorer, bought a Edge st instead.

[Assimilator]

Aviator is quite a phenomenon for Lincoln, I'm sure they are bringing in lots of conquest sales like Navigator.  I just hope it sustains over time.

 

Ford's utility sales have been lagging the industry and they've been the only company showing sales declines, so they have a long way to go before they have a sufficiently diverse and competitive utility range.  That starts with just updating the basics with Escape and Explorer, and next year they can start adding stuff.  The most volume is always in the cheaper cars and that's where Ford seems to have the lowest priority, probably because it just doesn't make that much money when they really need their investments and factories doing something that returns more than just volume.  So to fill the gap, they just phoned in the EcoSport from India and called it a day with really no commitment to that product longterm.  We will get more affordable utilities over the next 2-3 years.

 

Eventhough Ford is barely in the Top 5 of utility sellers in the US, they still have some of the most desirable volume because they are strong in Midsize (Explorer, Aviator, Edge, Nautilus) and Full-Size.  It wasn't until this year that GM overtook Ford on Midsize. I'm sure Bronco will help soon.  Otherwise GM dwarfs Ford in every utility segment.

 

As for Explorer and Escape styling, I'm conflicted.  I can't get behind the front design on Explorer, I think the last car stood out more and I don't see this car becoming the phenomenon that the last car was, it just doesn't look like an upscale utility. I love the proportions, but it also looks more like a wagon and doesn't have that utility presence that I think people expect and desire out of an Explorer.  I appreciate what they did technically, but I think the designers let it down.  I really think a facelift would do wonders.  Same with Escape, better proportions but completely inert and unnecessarily car-like styling. It's a great appliance, but it has as much personality as one.  I don't see these products adding much growth for Ford when  the competition is just so outstanding and diverse now.  

Edited December 6, 2019 by Assimilator

[T-dubz]

46 minutes ago, Assimilator said:

As for Explorer and Escape styling, I'm conflicted.  I can't get behind the front design on Explorer, I think the last car stood out more and I don't see this car becoming the phenomenon that the last car was, it just doesn't look like an upscale utility. I love the proportions, but it also looks more like a wagon and doesn't have that utility presence that I think people expect and desire out of an Explorer.  I appreciate what they did technically, but I think the designers let it down.  I really think a facelift would do wonders.  Same with Escape, better proportions but completely inert and unnecessarily car-like styling. It's a great appliance, but it has as much personality as one.  I don't see these products adding much growth for Ford when  the competition is just so outstanding and diverse now.  

I felt the same way about the explorer at first, but now I like how it looks, at least on the exterior. The interior is functional and it seems like there is tons of space to move around inside, but it has zero style. Fixing that would help a lot in my opinion. I’ve said this before, but ford really needs to step up its wheel design. The wheels can make or break the overall look of the exterior and the wheel designs they have been putting out lately have been pretty bland.

Edited December 6, 2019 by T-dubz

[ExplorerDude]

I’m happy to see Mustang sales spike up 30% in November. It was discussed during a Ford Town Hall that once Fiesta, Focus, Fusion, and Taurus were basically gone that we could expect to see regular Mustang sales go up some. Apparently there are some Ford loyalists who want a Ford car and don’t want an SUV so even though the Mustang is a coupe, it serves just as well as a traditional car in that sense for some. That just might steady regular Mustang sales for a while. Again small numbers but meaningful.

[Assimilator]

31 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

I felt the same way about the explorer at first, but now I like how it looks, at least on the exterior. The interior is functional and it seems like there is tons of space to move around inside, but it has zero style. Fixing that would help a lot in my opinion. I’ve said this before, but ford really needs to step up its wheel design. The wheels can make or break the overall look of the exterior and the wheel designs they have been putting out lately have been pretty bland.

 

The Explorer is growing on me in the same way the Cybertruck is growing on me, I think I'm just getting use to it but it's not something I look at and admire like the 2016 Explorer refresh (to this day). My reaction whenever I see an Explorer coming at me is disgust, LOL.  I could go on and on on why I hate the front-end, but I love the rest (except the back-end and interior).  The Explorer interior is just as frustrating to look at as the front, I don't know what they were thinking.  The binnacle is filled with a huge glob of black plastic with noticeable seams right in full view, and then there is the floating display which looks either too small or too ridiculous.  It's all constantly disappointing and I'm just glad Lincoln exists.  The Mach E gives me hope however.  

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Assimilator

[bzcat]

14 hours ago, jpd80 said:

You realize that you've just described a CD6 Edge....

 

I think someone already mentioned CD6 Edge is killed off. And frankly, Ford can charge a lot more money for an Explorer coupe as oppose to an Edge coupe if both of them are CD6. It's much harder to move Edge up the price point then to start with Explorer.

 

Hackett's plan is all about moving to the higher value end of each segment with a "Rugged" and a "Sporty" offering so 3 utilities in each segment...

 

Size:  Rugged / Commodity / Sporty

B-segment: EcoSport / Fiesta Active / Puma 

C-segment short: CX758? / Focus Active / ??? 

C-segment long: Baby Bronco / Escape / Escape coupe? 

Midsize: Bronco / Edge / TBD Mondeo replacement 

Midsize EV: ??? / MACH E based square back CUV / MACH E

Large: Everest / Explorer / Explorer coupe?

Fullsize: Expedition 

 

[rmc523]

 

20 hours ago, RadicalX said:

It seems to me aviator's stealing Nautilus sales. The car has been growing well in recent months and suddenly has 18% drop. Navigator, Expedition, Ranger, Edge and Mustang Coupe are doing very well. 

 

I don't know if I buy that because the last 4 months since Aviator started going on sale, Nautilus sales were up.  That said, coincidentally in November, the jump of Aviator numbers over last month was roughly the same as Nautilus' drop.

 

18 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Exactly.

Ford splitting the Escape market in two requires softer styling for it and the chunky/edgy style for the baby Bronco.

and of course, throw in a bit of retro look and people will pay more for what they really want...............

 

As bzcat said above, this is Ford not building 40,000 Escapes to compete with RAV4 or Equinox but

offering two different products to better cover the market (unnecessary duplication in Mulally speak)

 

The "problem" is the gap between Escape and baby Bronco launches results in a too soft Escape being the only option right now at Ford.

 

21 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe I'm a little tough on Explorer, it's only down about 2,000 compared to November last year

but Edge is up quite a bit, so maybe there's some give and take there as well...

 

Could Expedition's increased sales last month be a result of stronger incentives?

18 hours ago, CKNSLS said:

 

 

Are the Police versions separated out?

18 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Ford reports them separately 

 

Ford reports them separately in their quarter releases.

 

The posted monthly figures unfortunately don't seem to separate them, making Explorer figures look better than they would be separated.  But by how much, we don't know.  Only Q4 numbers will give us an idea for the ratio of Explorer:PIU sales.  I may have to do some math and revise Explorer numbers to get monthly estimates when we get Q4 numbers next month.

 

14 hours ago, mustang84isu said:

I think this month is a precursor to what we are going to continue seeing if the economy goes into recession in 2020.  Relying solely on high ATP SUVs is a mistake, especially when consumers become price sensitive in a downturn.  Hopefully the new Baby Bronco and Bronco can stem some of that loss, but I don't have a lot of confidence in Ford lately with the botched Explorer/Aviator launches, Hackett's lack of clarity on the turnaround, and Ford's general performance in the market.

Ford is likely going to permanently lose market share to Asian/German manufacturers who continue to invest in sedans.  I'm one of those that will likely have to look elsewhere this spring, as much as I hate to do it because I have been loyal to Ford for the last 15 years.  I don't like crossovers though, and unfortunately Ford has given me no choice but to look elsewhere.

I am glad to see Lincoln continuing to do well.  10,850 is the highest monthly total I can remember in a long time...especially for November.  In December months they usually crack 10K, but I can't remember the last time I saw a 10K total in November.

 

He talks weirdly, but to any of us, how is it not clear?  We know the products that are coming.

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

I think someone already mentioned CD6 Edge is killed off. And frankly, Ford can charge a lot more money for an Explorer coupe as oppose to an Edge coupe if both of them are CD6. It's much harder to move Edge up the price point then to start with Explorer.

 

Hackett's plan is all about moving to the higher value end of each segment with a "Rugged" and a "Sporty" offering so 3 utilities in each segment...

 

Size:  Rugged / Commodity / Sporty

B-segment: EcoSport / Fiesta Active / Puma 

C-segment short: CX758? / Focus Active / ??? 

C-segment long: Baby Bronco / Escape / Escape coupe? 

Midsize: Bronco / Edge / TBD Mondeo replacement 

Midsize EV: ??? / MACH E based square back CUV / MACH E

Large: Everest / Explorer / Explorer coupe?

Fullsize: Expedition 

 

I was responding to a poster suggesting that Ford should change the Explorer

to a two row utility with shorter back and lower roof line, I'm not a fan of the 

Explorer coupe idea, I know that some want it as an Apex ST performer but

to me the mix doesn't seem quite right.

 

In no way was I suggesting a CD6 Edge was coming but it is interesting to see

how both the C2 Edge and CD6 Explorer will work together, from what I've seen

of the new Edge, it's going to look like a big version of Escape and its soft style.

Obviously those changes are being done to accentuate the difference between

it and the T6 Bronco which adds another dimension to sales.

 

I do agree that Ford is lacking in crossovers, those near cars that were promised

and yet I'm sensing that maybe Ford will do a small walk back concession to

car buyers but not until after much of the new product has been delivered.

 

Out of interest, it looks like no production figures for Hermosillo were entered 

for October, I'm waiting for November production numbers before saying more

Edited December 6, 2019 by jpd80

[jpd80]

What find interesting is the big price gap between Explorer $36K and Expedition $52K

GM seems to do this as well with Blazer $29K, Traverse $31K,  Tahoe $49K  and Suburban $52K

 

It just seems like a big gap between $36K and $52K...or is Ford doing that deliberately, reserving

space for new products like Mustang Mach E.....

 

 

 

[ausrutherford]

25 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

What find interesting is the big price gap between Explorer $36K and Expedition $52K

GM seems to do this as well with Blazer $29K, Traverse $31K,  Tahoe $49K  and Suburban $52K

 

It just seems like a big gap between $36K and $52K...or is Ford doing that deliberately, reserving

space for new products like Mustang Mach E.....

 

 

 

 

Or the big Bronco...

[jpd80]

I think the penny just dropped for me,

Perhaps that price zone is also  the sweet spot for a lot of F150 crew cab sales,

GM seems to be leaving that price gap as well...Crew cab truck sales developed 

along with SUV sales need their own sales headroom.

Edited December 6, 2019 by jpd80

[akirby]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

What find interesting is the big price gap between Explorer $36K and Expedition $52K

GM seems to do this as well with Blazer $29K, Traverse $31K,  Tahoe $49K  and Suburban $52K

 

It just seems like a big gap between $36K and $52K...or is Ford doing that deliberately, reserving

space for new products like Mustang Mach E.....

 

 

Perhaps there is just more competition for Explorer and Traverse and less for Expy and Tahoe.

[jpd80]

1 minute ago, akirby said:

 

 

Perhaps there is just more competition for Explorer and Traverse and less for Expy and Tahoe.

And dropping the price of Expedition/Tahoe  may lead to cannibalizing F150/ Silverado crew cab sales..

 

[CKNSLS]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

 

 

Perhaps there is just more competition for Explorer and Traverse and less for Expy and Tahoe.

That's why I mentioned the Kia and Palisades. They are competition for those wanting a SUV/CUV without any consideration for BOF or towing. I believe once the Police versions numbers are broken out Explorer retail sales will not look as good. I also believe that the Explorer will have a tough go with the Korean product  offering features not found on the Explorer and the price hike on the new model year. This was discussed in a previous thread here. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by CKNSLS

[silvrsvt]

8 hours ago, CKNSLS said:

That's why I mentioned the Kia and Palisades. They are competition for those wanting a SUV/CUV without any consideration for BOF or towing. I believe once the Police versions numbers are broken out Explorer retail sales will not look as good. I also believe that the Explorer will have a tough go with the Korean product  offering features not found on the Explorer and the price hike on the new model year. This was discussed in a previous thread here. 

 

But it hasn't...the 2020 Explorer is outselling both products combined as of last month. The current Explorer is only 2K off last years pace in sales month to month-not including the jacked up launch issues. The Kia/Hyundai twins are under cutting the market period price wise.  

 

As for PIU sales-they didn't go into production till this past summer/fall-so in the past 90 days or so and to be honest, I have yet to see a PIU on the road or mentioned  online, so I'm wondering if they have been launched yet. 

[RichardJensen]

14 hours ago, akirby said:

 

 

Perhaps there is just more competition for Explorer and Traverse and less for Expy and Tahoe.

 

Another thought:

 

If you assume that the same size family purchases both Expys and Explorers, then the price gap allows Ford to sell more high end Explorers vs. fewer lower priced Expys?

 

In my head, an Explorer/Expy is a target vehicle for a 4-5 person family, and a crew cab might overlap that a bit, but I think 3rd row seating is a 'must have' for a majority of Expy/Explorer customers.

 

I come by this thinking based on experience w/my own extended fam, where one sister w/2 nearly full grown kids bought an Expedition L and another with three kids traded off a standard Expy for a Tahoe (boo!)

 

In both cases, the 3rd row/additional covered cargo space was considered a necessity.

Edited December 7, 2019 by RichardJensen

[akirby]

7 minutes ago, RichardJensen said:

 

Another thought:

 

If you assume that the same size family purchases both Expys and Explorers, then the price gap allows Ford to sell more high end Explorers vs. fewer lower priced Expys?

 

In my head, an Explorer/Expy is a target vehicle for a 4-5 person family, and a crew cab might overlap that a bit, but I think 3rd row seating is a 'must have' for a majority of Expy/Explorer customers.

 

I come by this thinking based on experience w/my own extended fam, where one sister w/2 nearly full grown kids bought an Expedition L and another with three kids traded off a standard Expy for a Tahoe (boo!)

 

In both cases, the 3rd row/additional covered cargo space was considered a necessity.

Agreed.  Also - if you need the extra cargo capacity and/or the higher towing/payload capacity you don’t really have the option of going with the cheaper midsized versions, so that combined with less competitors make it easier to charge more.

[RichardJensen]

2 minutes ago, akirby said:

Agreed.  Also - if you need the extra cargo capacity and/or the higher towing/payload capacity you don’t really have the option of going with the cheaper midsized versions, so that combined with less competitors make it easier to charge more.

 

One of the things that surprised me about the CD6 Explorer was the significantly higher max towing, and I'm curious about the extent to which that impacted programming for the model.

[HotRunrGuy]

20 minutes ago, RichardJensen said:

 

One of the things that surprised me about the CD6 Explorer was the significantly higher max towing, and I'm curious about the extent to which that impacted programming for the model.

 

You think 600# is that big of a deal?

 

HRG

 

[RichardJensen]

2 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

You think 600# is that big of a deal?

 

HRG

 

 

Ah, I read '600lbs more' as '6000lbs' when I was looking at the press package.

[HotRunrGuy]

2 minutes ago, RichardJensen said:

 

Ah, I read '600lbs more' as '6000lbs' when I was looking at the press package.

 

Gotcha!   What I think is amazing is the large jump the 2.3EB AWD got from 2019 to 2020, even considering the relatively minor gear ratio change.

 

HRG