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Analysts Warn Lincoln Not to Follow Fords Sedan Purge


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Just thinking out loud.......the recent UAW contract stated there would be an "all new Mustang and derivatives" built at Flat Rock.........is it too much to hope that those "derivatives" could be something like a Lincoln coupe/sportback or even a (I'm not sure I'm comfortable with it.....but more comfortable than with Mach E!!) a Mustang 4-door coupe/sportback......based on S650's architecture?

 

EIUE6PyX0AAZrrl.jpg[/img]

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9 minutes ago, Twin Turbo said:

Just thinking out loud.......the recent UAW contract stated there would be an "all new Mustang and derivatives" built at Flat Rock.........is it too much to hope that those "derivatives" could be something like a Lincoln coupe/sportback or even a (I'm not sure I'm comfortable with it.....but more comfortable than with Mach E!!) a Mustang 4-door coupe/sportback......based on S650's architecture?

 

EIUE6PyX0AAZrrl.jpg[/img]

 

I asked my friend who works there and we kind of took derivatives to mean GT350/500, Bullitt, whatever other special mustangs might be coming. 

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1 hour ago, Twin Turbo said:

Just thinking out loud.......the recent UAW contract stated there would be an "all new Mustang and derivatives" built at Flat Rock.........is it too much to hope that those "derivatives" could be something like a Lincoln coupe/sportback or even a (I'm not sure I'm comfortable with it.....but more comfortable than with Mach E!!) a Mustang 4-door coupe/sportback......based on S650's architecture?

 

I would like to think any four door coupe/sportback would be called Thunderbird or Falcon.... please

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Right now I don't see any evidence of Lincoln developing new sedans for the US, I'm less sure about China which is developing their own products.  Ford just talked about their C2 portfolio which does include the profile of a sedan, which very well could be Mondeo or a Lincoln version for China.  Mondeo's replacement however is described as a Crossover so I'm not clear yet on what that sole sedan is.

 

I would argue that Lincoln doesn't need a sedan, anymore than Ford needs a sedan.  Lincoln has been besting their competition on Crossovers and SUVs and can certainly thrive in those categories which are yielding greater returns and playing to their corporate and customer strengths.  Lincoln hasn't been nearly as successful with sedans in recent DECADES.  Choosing this point to start that fight again seems dumb, especially with electrification reshaping their future portfolio further.  If Lincoln is to make new sedans, an electric platform would be a good place to resume.  I would personally like to see a stylish Lincoln sedan like an MKZ replacement, I'm less interested in large sedans with crossovers around. 

 

 

 

Edited by Assimilator
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The midsize/D-segment C2 vehicles planned are:

  • Edge replacement (5 seat CUV) US
  • Nautilus replacement (5 seat CUV) US and China
  • Edge replacement (7 seat CUV) China
  • Mondeo wagon replacement (5 seat CUV) Europe (maybe US and China too)
  • S-Max/Galaxy replacement (7-seat CUV) Europe 

 

What's not in the plans (at least we know of):

  • Mondeo/Fusion Sedan (and hatchback) replacement
  • Taurus sedan replacement
  • MKZ replacement
  • Continental replacement
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2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

I asked my friend who works there and we kind of took derivatives to mean GT350/500, Bullitt, whatever other special mustangs might be coming. 

Correct. In Ford speak, a derivative shares more than 50% of parts with the originator.

That $250 million is not much for an all new Mustang, especially when also spread across Continental... or is that how much Ford intends spending on upgrading FRAP?

 

Does anyone know if the proposed new paint shop is still canceled or is it back in now that Ford is not closing FRAP?

Edited by jpd80
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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

The midsize/D-segment C2 vehicles planned are:

  • Edge replacement (5 seat CUV) US
  • Nautilus replacement (5 seat CUV) US and China
  • Edge replacement (7 seat CUV) China
  • Mondeo wagon replacement (5 seat CUV) Europe (maybe US and China too)
  • S-Max/Galaxy replacement (7-seat CUV) Europe 

 

What's not in the plans (at least we know of):

  • Mondeo/Fusion Sedan (and hatchback) replacement
  • Taurus sedan replacement
  • MKZ replacement
  • Continental replacement

I think you'll find that S-Max is cancelled and that it's being replaced by the Mondeo/Fusion CUV,

I haven't heard anything about Galaxy but don't be surprised if it's swallowed up by Tourneo Custom.

Ford seems to be on a mission to kill off MPVs in Europe.

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MPVs are indeed dead except for the commercial derivatives. They serve the same purpose, it's cheaper just to produce passenger versions, and the vans are largely produced in Turkey at lower wage costs.

 

Everyone else in Europe has also started to kill them off too. PSA, Toyota, etc. The only brand seemingly holding on to them in VW...for now.

 

 

There IS a C2 sedan coming:

EK8fp--XYAUqxtH?format=png&name=900x900

 

What is it, no one can guess at this point, but they are combining body styles together (which Ford usually doesn't).

 

So...

 

1. Ford Transit Connect (4 body styles)

2. Lincoln Corsair

3. Ford Escape/Kuga

4. Ford Focus (4 body styles)

 

The others should be...

5. Ford Edge (2 body styles)

6. Lincoln Nautilus 

7. Ford Fusion (lifted wagon?)

8. Small Ford Truck?

9. 7 seat CUV based off truck?

10. Ford Mondeo (China)?

11. Ford Baby Bronco

 

You got to wonder how the Fiesta, Ka/Figo, Transit Courier, EcoSport, and Puma fit in the "C2" since they are clearing not included in the program. I guess B2 is living on.

 

 

We shall have to see...

Edited by ausrutherford
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8 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

You got to wonder how the Fiesta, Ka/Figo, Transit Courier, EcoSport, and Puma fit in the "C2" since they are clearing not included in the program. I guess B2 is living on.

 

Ka and Ecosport (codes B680 and BX755) are said to be in advanced development stages in Brazil, with production investment to be announced as soon as some cuts are approved by the union in Bahia.

Lauch is expected to be in 2021, so no C2 for those two before 2027.

 

As for the Fiesta and Puma, I guess their next generation would be on C2 but that's also quite a few years away, maybe 2023.

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15 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

MPVs are indeed dead except for the commercial derivatives. They serve the same purpose, it's cheaper just to produce passenger versions, and the vans are largely produced in Turkey at lower wage costs.

 

Everyone else in Europe has also started to kill them off too. PSA, Toyota, etc. The only brand seemingly holding on to them in VW...for now.

 

 

There IS a C2 sedan coming:

EK8fp--XYAUqxtH?format=png&name=900x900

 

What is it, no one can guess at this point, but they are combining body styles together (which Ford usually doesn't).

 

So...

 

1. Ford Transit Connect (4 body styles)

2. Lincoln Corsair

3. Ford Escape/Kuga

4. Ford Focus (4 body styles)

 

The others should be...

5. Ford Edge (2 body styles)

6. Lincoln Nautilus 

7. Ford Fusion (lifted wagon?)

8. Small Ford Truck?

9. 7 seat CUV based off truck?

10. Ford Mondeo (China)?

11. Ford Baby Bronco

 

You got to wonder how the Fiesta, Ka/Figo, Transit Courier, EcoSport, and Puma fit in the "C2" since they are clearing not included in the program. I guess B2 is living on.

 

 

We shall have to see...

 

The C2 sedan on that chart is Ford Escort, which is a compact/C-segment car. There is no midsize/D-segment C2 sedan in the plan.

 

The white space vehicle is likely Mondeo/Fusion replacement.

 

The 5 other utilities are CX758 (compact), Baby Bronco (compact), Edge (midsize), Nautilus (midsize), TBD 7 seat CUV to replace the Euro MPV (midsize).

 

 

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2 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

The C2 sedan on that chart is Ford Escort, which is a compact/C-segment car. There is no midsize/D-segment C2 sedan in the plan.

 

The white space vehicle is likely Mondeo/Fusion replacement.

 

The 5 other utilities are CX758 (compact), Baby Bronco (compact), Edge (midsize), Nautilus (midsize), TBD 7 seat CUV to replace the Euro MPV (midsize).

 

 

 

Forgot about the Escort. Yes, that should cover it. 

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Yes, Escort had a good MCE in 2018  but why would it now be under cover....

Could Escort be expanded to fill a bigger role  in the future?

 

I think what's happening here is that B1, C2 and CD4 all existed before Ford decided to have

engineering architecture groups, a way to bundle all of those similar platforms together under

a single cost/ engineering project center. The C2 name is the dominant architecture but not all

products will be pure C2 platform.

 

It's like these EPLs, again something Ford has made up on the fly because product research and

planning was notoriously slow, long winded and generally out of date by the time the project starts,

they're a way of feeding engineering up to date customer requirements for vehicle envelopes and then

completing the loop with customer feedback for MCEs, fine tuning during the product cycle.

 

Edited by jpd80
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2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Yes, Escort had a good MCE in 2018  but why would it now be under cover....

Could Escort be expanded to fill a bigger role  in the future?

 

I think what's happening here is that B1, C2 and CD4 all existed before Ford decided to have

engineering architecture groups, a way to bundle all of those similar platforms together under

a single cost/ engineering project center. The C2 name is the dominant architecture but not all

products will be pure C2 platform.

 

It's like these EPLs, again something Ford has made up on the fly because product research and

planning was notoriously slow, long winded and generally out of date by the time the project starts,

they're a way of feeding engineering up to date customer requirements for vehicle envelopes and then

completing the loop with customer feedback for MCEs, fine tuning during the product cycle.

 

 

Well the Escort should be all-new within a couple of years, so the vehicles under the tarp are probably through 2022 or something like that. 

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On 12/9/2019 at 2:09 PM, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

It is canceled. There was supposed to be environmental hearings and public discussion last month about it but Ford withdrew the application. 

 

This makes it the second time in a year the new paint shop was cancelled.

 

I wonder what could go into Flat Rock as Ford's plans seem to be changing almost weekly ?

 

The Baby Bronco and Courier or the "whitespace" Fusion replacement seem the most logical.

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On 12/9/2019 at 1:53 PM, jpd80 said:

Correct. In Ford speak, a derivative shares more than 50% of parts with the originator.

That $250 million is not much for an all new Mustang, especially when also spread across Continental... or is that how much Ford intends spending on upgrading FRAP?

 

Does anyone know if the proposed new paint shop is still canceled or is it back in now that Ford is not closing FRAP?

The $250 million is what Ford plans to spend updating Flat Rock.  Keep in mind that there is a tendency to under promise and overdeliver on plant investments. 

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On 12/9/2019 at 10:45 AM, Twin Turbo said:

Just thinking out loud.......the recent UAW contract stated there would be an "all new Mustang and derivatives" built at Flat Rock.........is it too much to hope that those "derivatives" could be something like a Lincoln coupe/sportback or even a (I'm not sure I'm comfortable with it.....but more comfortable than with Mach E!!) a Mustang 4-door coupe/sportback......based on S650's architecture?

 

EIUE6PyX0AAZrrl.jpg[/img]

One thing that I find interesting is that stampings for the next Mustang are being added to MAP and Woodhaven.  This could mean an expansion of different body styles for the Mustang? 

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16 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

One thing that I find interesting is that stampings for the next Mustang are being added to MAP and Woodhaven.  This could mean an expansion of different body styles for the Mustang? 

 

We already have some stamping work for Mustang and Continental (Floor pans, mainly). We were told we would be getting more but it hasn't been determined what we are getting yet. 

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