Ford’s EV Truck Chassis

[Trader 10]

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/12/07/ford-ev-patent-skateboard-chassis/

[novanglus]

20 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/12/07/ford-ev-patent-skateboard-chassis/

...should allow for maintaining a modular frame setup, with longer trucks getting bigger batteries.

[Assimilator]

The F-150 BEV battery is unfortunately smaller than I was expecting, it's only 50% bigger than the Mach E battery which would make it about half the size of the Tesla Cybertruck's max configuration.  It's a really long narrow battery, the truck frame doesn't leave sufficient room for a huge battery pack.  I'm curious to see what kind of range they get, but I don't see how they are going to get more than 300 miles.  It's a simple low-tech and inexpensive conversion because there is unused space between the frames, but any sled-based design will murder them on performance.

 

If people are looking for Ford to answer Cybertruck with similar EV specs, this could potentially magnify the gap more than anything.  I'm a little concerned right now that Ford wasn't ambitious enough.  I don't know what motors the F-150 is using, but I know the Transit BEV is using the Mach E motors so I'm assuming the same or similar. 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Assimilator

[Stray Kat]

I think the Cybertruck is a miss so far. The Rivian looks like a far more consumer friendly vehicle. 
 

Knowing Ford they’ll have both a ladder frame EV and also a “skateboard” configuration. 
 

Remember Ford is laser focused on trucks, SUV’s and CUV’s with a bit of Mustang thrown in for good measure. 
 

Ford will not miss on trucks no matter who comes to challenge them. 

[Stray Kat]

I think the Cybertruck is a miss so far. The Rivian looks like a far more consumer friendly vehicle. 
 

Knowing Ford they’ll have both a ladder frame EV and also a “skateboard” configuration. 
 

Remember Ford is laser focused on trucks, SUV’s and CUV’s with a bit of Mustang thrown in for good measure. 
 

Ford will not miss on trucks no matter who comes to challenge them. 

[akirby]

I think they’ll let Rivain do the cybertruck and they’re going to do a BEV F-150 that looks and performs like a F-150 with all the stuff that makes F-150 best in class but with a battery.  I think a 300 mile range is sufficient.

 

How does towing affect range?

[7Mary3]

Good idea.  Likely can be built on same line as ICE F-150's.

[Willwll313wll]

Keep and mind that the Cybertruck is not a production vehicle. Though it was not verbally stated, it is very much a concept truck. 

[twintornados]

This BEV truck with autonomous operation would be a huge hit in the mining biz....think about it, a finite drive loop that can be tracked remotely by a central control area with vehicles being dispatched as needed to different areas of the mining operation. Should be a cinch to accomplish.

[MY93SHO]

13 hours ago, akirby said:

I think they’ll let Rivain do the cybertruck and they’re going to do a BEV F-150 that looks and performs like a F-150 with all the stuff that makes F-150 best in class but with a battery.  I think a 300 mile range is sufficient.

 

How does towing affect range?

 

[bzcat]

17 hours ago, akirby said:

I think they’ll let Rivain do the cybertruck and they’re going to do a BEV F-150 that looks and performs like a F-150 with all the stuff that makes F-150 best in class but with a battery.  I think a 300 mile range is sufficient.

 

How does towing affect range?

 

The Rivian truck is also more midsize than fullsize. 

 

R1T (crew cab)

Length 217.1"

Width 79.3"

Height 71.5"

Wheelbase 135.8"

Bed Length 55.1"

 

Ranger (crew cab)

Length 210.8"

Width 73.3"

Height 71.8"

Wheelbase 126.8"

Bed Length 61"

 

F-150 (crew cab 5.5 ft bed - shortest configuration crew cab) 

Length 231.9"

Width 79.9"

Height 77.2"

Wheelbase 145"

Bed Length 67.1"

 

And in case anyone is wondering... the R1S SUV is almost exactly the same size as Explorer.

Edited December 9, 2019 by bzcat

[Assimilator]

Towing with current battery tech is not very practical because the energy density is WAY too low to overcome the weight and drag inefficiencies.  You essentially loose way to much range towing, and it takes a long time to stop and recharge a big battery.  And if the F-150 is going with a fairly small battery pack, it's not going to be a great tower until the tech can accommodate the packaging limits of a BOF ICE vehicle.  Until then, the F-150 is never going to be an ideal EV truck, but I think Ford largely just wants a zero emission version of F-150 that doesn't cost a fortune to develop or build.  The advantages of a frame are mostly lost since it takes up space and towing is limited, it's one of the reasons Tesla Cybertruck and Rivian are using a fundamentally different designs to maintain chassis strength for towing and off-roading.

 

I think Tesla has a better idea, it just has to be executed first and eventually it will influence the competition as they always have.  That's what's great about Tesla, it's really the only company that can take these huge innovative risks and there is no segment that needed disruption more than pickups.  

Edited December 9, 2019 by Assimilator

[70 Stang]

1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

The Rivian truck is also more midsize than fullsize. 

 

R1T (crew cab)

Length 217.1"

Width 79.3"

Height 71.5"

Wheelbase 135.8"

Bed Length 55.1"

 

Ranger (crew cab)

Length 210.8"

Width 73.3"

Height 71.8"

Wheelbase 126.8"

Bed Length 61"

 

F-150 (crew cab 5.5 ft bed - shortest configuration crew cab) 

Length 231.9"

Width 79.9"

Height 77.2"

Wheelbase 145"

Bed Length 67.1"

 

And in case anyone is wondering... the R1S SUV is almost exactly the same size as Explorer.

I think the R1T is the sweet spot for size.....a few more inches in the bed wouldn't hurt though!

[akirby]

36 minutes ago, Assimilator said:

Towing with current battery tech is not very practical because the energy density is WAY too low to overcome the weight and drag inefficiencies.  You essentially loose way to much range towing, and it takes a long time to stop and recharge a big battery.  And if the F-150 is going with a fairly small battery pack, it's not going to be a great tower until the tech can accommodate the packaging limits of a BOF ICE vehicle.  Until then, the F-150 is never going to be an ideal EV truck, but I think Ford largely just wants a zero emission version of F-150 that doesn't cost a fortune to develop or build.  The advantages of a frame are mostly lost since it takes up space and towing is limited, it's one of the reasons Tesla Cybertruck and Rivian are using a fundamentally different designs to maintain chassis strength for towing and off-roading.

 

I think Tesla has a better idea, it just has to be executed first and eventually it will influence the competition as they always have.  That's what's great about Tesla, it's really the only company that can take these huge innovative risks and there is no segment that needed disruption more than pickups.  

 

I think most potential F150 BEV buyers would be fine with a 300 mile range unloaded or 100 miles towing along with all the normal F150 features and styling.

[HotRunrGuy]

12 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

I think most potential F150 BEV buyers would be fine with a 300 mile range unloaded or 100 miles towing along with all the normal F150 features and styling.

 

!00 mile range towing?  That won't even cover a typical day trip for me taking the boat to a lake in the area.

 

Really, they need to consider calling it a F100, so people don't think it should have the capabilities of a F150.

 

HRG

[akirby]

39 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

!00 mile range towing?  That won't even cover a typical day trip for me taking the boat to a lake in the area.

 

Really, they need to consider calling it a F100, so people don't think it should have the capabilities of a F150.

 

HRG

 

Around here 100 miles round trip gets you to both large lakes.  I guess it depends on where you live and which lake you go to.

 

It won't work for everybody but I don't think Ford intends to sell 100K of them either.   As for capability, other than range I would expect it to still have F150 capability.

[RichardJensen]

 

Nifty. They even included a picture of Tesla's truck (10)

[SoonerLS]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

 

I think most potential F150 BEV buyers would be fine with a 300 mile range unloaded or 100 miles towing along with all the normal F150 features and styling.

Back east, maybe. Out here, 100 miles ain't gonna get 'er done. Hell, in west Texas, 100 miles won't get you to the next town with a gas station...

[fordmantpw]

7 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

Back east, maybe. Out here, 100 miles ain't gonna get 'er done. Hell, in west Texas, 100 miles won't get you to the next town with a gas station...

 

Well, thankfully electric trucks don't need no stinkin gas stations!  ?

[HotRunrGuy]

7 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

Back east, maybe. Out here, 100 miles ain't gonna get 'er done. Hell, in west Texas, 100 miles won't get you to the next town with a gas station...

 

EV charging stations are a little sparse in west TX.

 

HRG

Edited December 10, 2019 by HotRunrGuy

[jasonj80]

17 hours ago, Assimilator said:

I think Tesla has a better idea, it just has to be executed first and eventually it will influence the competition as they always have.  That's what's great about Tesla, it's really the only company that can take these huge innovative risks and there is no segment that needed disruption more than pickups.  

Well to be fair when you never have to post a profit and can keep getting venture capital money to fund a money losing company it allows risk to do what ever you want. The problem with Wall Street is that they are in so deep in Tesla that they don't really have an exit strategy. The moment one of them starts to pull out they all will collapse the company and leading to tens of Billions in losses, plus if they ever do post a profit they'll be able to use all the loses to make sure they don't pay any tax. I'm sure there will be some Autopilot feature activations soon so they can book that revenue. I'm do wonder if PWC ends up getting taken down like AA did in the Enron world when the house of cards collapses. 

In the end Ford/GM/Toyota/Honda all have a very different playbook they must follow vs Tesla. They basically have had free money for the past 10 years, I'm not sure any company in history has been allowed to lose money for 10 years and is still be in business.

Edited December 10, 2019 by jasonj80

[akirby]

1 hour ago, jasonj80 said:

Well to be fair when you never have to post a profit and can keep getting venture capital money to fund a money losing company it allows risk to do what ever you want. The problem with Wall Street is that they are in so deep in Tesla that they don't really have an exit strategy. The moment one of them starts to pull out they all will collapse the company and leading to tens of Billions in losses, plus if they ever do post a profit they'll be able to use all the loses to make sure they don't pay and tax. I'm sure there will be some Autopilot feature activations soon so they can book that revenue. I'm do wonder if PWC ends up getting taken down like AA did in the Enron world when the house of cards collapses. 

In the end Ford/GM/Toyota/Honda all have a very different playbook they must follow vs Tesla. They basically have had free money for the past 10 years, I'm not sure any company in history has been allowed to lose money for 10 years and is still be in business.

 

Well said and this seems to be lost on some people.  Do you know how many vehicles Ford could sell if they never had to turn a profit?

 

I heard on Autoline that if Tesla included the true cost of superchargers it would add tens of thousands to each vehicle.

 

Its a brilliant Ponzi scheme but it won’t last forever.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

Back east, maybe. Out here, 100 miles ain't gonna get 'er done. Hell, in west Texas, 100 miles won't get you to the next town with a gas station...

 

Good point.  So what kind of towing range would be acceptable for most buyers - understanding this isn't going to replace a Super Duty or ICE F150 for serious towing.

[NLPRacing]

17 hours ago, 70 Stang said:

I think the R1T is the sweet spot for size.....a few more inches in the bed wouldn't hurt though!

 

Sorry, couldn't resist...

[HotRunrGuy]

19 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

The Rivian truck is also more midsize than fullsize. 

 

R1T (crew cab)

Length 217.1"

Width 79.3"

Height 71.5"

Wheelbase 135.8"

Bed Length 55.1"

 

Ranger (crew cab)

Length 210.8"

Width 73.3"

Height 71.8"

Wheelbase 126.8"

Bed Length 61"

 

F-150 (crew cab 5.5 ft bed - shortest configuration crew cab) 

Length 231.9"

Width 79.9"

Height 77.2"

Wheelbase 145"

Bed Length 67.1"

 

And in case anyone is wondering... the R1S SUV is almost exactly the same size as Explorer.

 

I'm not sure I'd consider the R1T a mid-size.  If you equalize the bed lengths, adding/subtracting the 12" difference between the R1T and the F150 Crew, the width & OAL become very similar. To me, the first metric I tend to look at, comparing mid-size to full-size, is the width, with interior leg room (especially 2nd row) next.

 

HRG