fordmantpw Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 3 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said: Considering I just spent some $$$$ on a (natural gas) whole-house generator, how do people with all-electric houses deal with power outages? It would take a bunch of batteries to support a multi-day outage. HRG We are all-electric and we don't have a generator or batteries...very few people around here do. In the 5+ years here at our new house, we've probably been without power a total of an hour or less. Electricity is very reliable here in our area. 4 hours ago, akirby said: Natural gas was a requirement for our new house for both cooking and heating. I would not go back to electric and didn't want the hassle of a propane tank. Induction cooktops are awesome! And I wouldn't trade my geothermal heat for gas heat at all (especially when it comes time to pay the bill). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 On 1/14/2020 at 11:43 AM, rmc523 said: I think it'd be a mistake to just throw Edge out - it's well known and has consistently been among if not the top in its segment, no? That wasn't the suggestion. Ford could call the square back EV, Ford Edge MACH # (insert a letter) if they want. The point being Ford will have two similar sized CUV with nearly identical form factor - one electric and the other one ICE. How they manage the marketing is not really the point here. We know Edge is getting another facelift in 2021 so that suggests the current model is going to march on for bit longer than Ford's typical 7-8 years marathon model cycle. It means the current Edge will live side by side with the square back EV CUV (due late 2021 or early 2022) for a while. Europe and China would have received their Edge replacement by 2022 but the North America version will probably march on until Ford sees what kind of number the square back EV is doing. Ford is also hedging a bit by launching the Fusion crossover, which will surely impact Edge sales as well. Between Fusion CUV and square back EV, maybe Ford is calculating that there won't be that much volume left in the ICE Edge in North America by 2025 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 They sure do like to shoot themselves in the foot with these obnoxiously long product cycles, don't they? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 16 minutes ago, rmc523 said: They sure do like to shoot themselves in the foot with these obnoxiously long product cycles, don't they? It's because they change direction and plans so often they can't seem to finish anything the way they originally planned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 21 hours ago, rmc523 said: They sure do like to shoot themselves in the foot with these obnoxiously long product cycles, don't they? Add to that $11 billion sucked out of existing product development to go chase EVs AVs and connectivity, add another $11 billion to reform Europe and ROW products Ford is still clinging to F Series paying for everything else that barely covers its own replacement cost. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 2 hours ago, jpd80 said: Add to that $11 billion sucked out of existing product development to go chase EVs AVs and connectivity, add another $11 billion to reform Europe and ROW products Ford is still clinging to F Series paying for everything else that barely covers its own replacement cost. Stock price reflects as much....completly abandoning the under $20k market is not even factored in yet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 On 1/14/2020 at 12:28 PM, 92merc said: Rumor is it will be on a stretched platform of the Escape. Not CD6 RWD. So it will stick to FWD platform. But nothing official from Ford, no spy shots as of yet to guess. But that does leave the option of a future CD6 smaller than Explorer option available. The other variable is the whole EV platfrom. There may not be much further development on the ICE platforms. So there's always that... CD6 is a "flexible" platform and a FWD based platform can built from it. Sharing common platforms reduce costs and increase profits. https://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-platforms/ford-cd6-platform/ Quote One of the primary purposes of the Ford CD6 platform is to drive scale economies even further by sharing parts with other vehicles. In that regard, CD6 is not so much a platform as it is a flexible vehicle set – a characteristic that allows it to share many parts in what would traditionally be disparate vehicles and platforms. One of its key features is its ability to support both transverse, front-wheel-drive, or longitudinal rear-wheel-drive powerplants, allowing it to adapt to all types of applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 52 minutes ago, snooter said: Stock price reflects as much....completly abandoning the under $20k market is not even factored in yet.... Stock prices are a lagging indicator, they don’t change until Ford actually delivers something that makes the price increase. All of that because Ford has a plan for increased profits that take years to materialise because the last plan was going in the wrong direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 On 1/15/2020 at 11:32 AM, 92merc said: Not sure which Plains states you're referring to. But up here in the Great Frozen north of the Plains in North Dakota, the Bakken formation is providing us with plenty of NG. He was talking about if the "no NG" regulations moved across the country and how it would be a non-starter in the Great Plains states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 On 1/15/2020 at 6:47 AM, silvrsvt said: So far that is a California only thing-Not having access to NG in the Plain states or the North East where it can get below zero is going to seriously piss off people in the winter, not to mention heat pump systems are more inefficient then a separate furnace/HVAC setup I'm all for trying to improve things, but don't cut your nose off to spite your face... it’s not just California. Cities in Massachusetts are also on that bandwagon. Washington is pushing the same. Heat pumps are FAR more energy efficient than gas fired furnaces. I work in the industry and this is a wide spread trend towards heat pumps and VRF in commercial buildings. https://www.trane.com/residential/en/resources/heat-pump-vs-furnace-what-heating-system-is-right-for-you/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 I'm in WY and work for a oil & gas pipeline company. Not awqare of any plains states that don't have access to NG. Cheap and plentiful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, blazerdude20 said: it’s not just California. Cities in Massachusetts are also on that bandwagon. Washington is pushing the same. Heat pumps are FAR more energy efficient than gas fired furnaces. I work in the industry and this is a wide spread trend towards heat pumps and VRF in commercial buildings. https://www.trane.com/residential/en/resources/heat-pump-vs-furnace-what-heating-system-is-right-for-you/ I was just going off what I was told by my old man who has 30+ years of HVAC experience...and we live in the area that they suggest furnaces anyways ? Edited January 19, 2020 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 16 hours ago, blazerdude20 said: it’s not just California. Cities in Massachusetts are also on that bandwagon. Washington is pushing the same. Heat pumps are FAR more energy efficient than gas fired furnaces. I work in the industry and this is a wide spread trend towards heat pumps and VRF in commercial buildings. https://www.trane.com/residential/en/resources/heat-pump-vs-furnace-what-heating-system-is-right-for-you/ Heat pumps are more energy efficient only to a certain point. When it gets cold enough, heat pumps cannot generate enough heat and must use a secondary heat source, usually electric heat strips. Electric heat strips are not very efficient. You can use a gas furnace as the secondary heat source, but that adds to the initial installation cost. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Up here in ND, you can get ground sourced heat pumps installed. These will take care of the house down into very low outside temps, and cool the house in the summer really cheaply. But the installation costs are the killer. It just doesn't pay for itself since both electricity and NG are relatively cheap up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Reading up on the Brookline MA ordinance, interestingly enough, they are allowing NG for cooking and back-up generators. So while those Libtards want to push their all-electric agenda, they're not willing to risk freezing themselves out in the event of a power failure. Plus, something like 60% of their electricity is generated by NG-fueled powerplants. A bit hypocritical, IMO. HRG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pictor Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 29 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said: Reading up on the Brookline MA ordinance, interestingly enough, they are allowing NG for cooking and back-up generators. So while those Libtards want to push their all-electric agenda, they're not willing to risk freezing themselves out in the event of a power failure. Plus, something like 60% of their electricity is generated by NG-fueled powerplants. A bit hypocritical, IMO. HRG Don’t move there, I doubt you could afford it,“libtards” tend to level in very wealthy towns with excellent school system, low gun violence, long life expectancy and other non essentials things. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 1 hour ago, 92merc said: Up here in ND, you can get ground sourced heat pumps installed. These will take care of the house down into very low outside temps, and cool the house in the summer really cheaply. But the installation costs are the killer. It just doesn't pay for itself since both electricity and NG are relatively cheap up here. We have GSHP (aka geothermal) and we love it. We cool our house for pennies in the summer (plus free hot water), and the heat works extremely well here in central MO. I don't think GSHP would work well in the cold north of ND, though. When it gets cold (0 is cold here) our geothermal furnace will run nearly non-stop (22+ hours per day). It has to move LOTS of air to work well, but our auxiliary heat strips have never kicked in. Our thermostat gives us all kinds of information, and, when it's really cold, we heat our entire 2500 sq-ft (main level + 1500 sq-ft finished basement) house with about 1700 W, or just over the equivalent of an electric ceramic heater. This is keeping the house 71-72 degrees. The installation cost wasn't that much more than a comparable gas system, possibly even a bit less with rebates and tax credits figured in. NG isn't an option for us here, even though a major main runs through about a mile from our house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 1:27 PM, jpd80 said: Add to that $11 billion sucked out of existing product development to go chase EVs AVs and connectivity, add another $11 billion to reform Europe and ROW products Curious on where you got those numbers ? Don't forget the $1+B being spent on rebuilding the Dearborn R&E Center and I don't think that includes remodeling WHQ. Oh, and anothe $1+B to rebuild Michigan Depot train station ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 22 hours ago, fordmantpw said: We have GSHP (aka geothermal) and we love it. We cool our house for pennies in the summer (plus free hot water), and the heat works extremely well here in central MO. I don't think GSHP would work well in the cold north of ND, though. Geothermal heat pumps work fine as long as you don't have permafrost ! The biggest problem with geothermal is LOCATING and SIZING the ground loop. Some companies will do a horizontal loop installation. This is a "one shot" deal. If their calculations are wrong you are screwed because there typically is insufficient additional ground to extend the loop. If you dig one or more wells and the sizing is incorrect, you can always dig another well (at additional expense). Curious. Do you know the temperature of the coolant as it goes to and from the ground loop ? The return water should be above 40F. closer to 50F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 11 hours ago, theoldwizard said: Geothermal heat pumps work fine as long as you don't have permafrost ! The biggest problem with geothermal is LOCATING and SIZING the ground loop. Some companies will do a horizontal loop installation. This is a "one shot" deal. If their calculations are wrong you are screwed because there typically is insufficient additional ground to extend the loop. If you dig one or more wells and the sizing is incorrect, you can always dig another well (at additional expense). Curious. Do you know the temperature of the coolant as it goes to and from the ground loop ? The return water should be above 40F. closer to 50F. We have a 5 ton unit in our house. The electric co-op wanted a 6 ton unit, but that wouldn't allow the zoning we wanted. The HVAC contractor assured us a 5 ton unit would work, but the co-op wouldn't honor the rebate ($750/ton) unless we went 6 ton, so we compromised and did 6 ton worth of loop for a 5 ton unit. This makes things more efficient. Our loops are vertical. I don't remember the depth, but I'm thinking 150' each, and I believe there are 4 wells? Vertical is typically more efficient, and we had the drillers onsite to drill our water well, so it was convenient enough to drill the GSHP wells at the same time. Cost between the two is similar, and fewer things to worry about with vertical loops. We also hit water fairly shallow, which is also more efficient. I have also seen place that put the loops in the bottom of a lake as well, but vertical loops is the most common around here. I honestly don't know the return water temp, but I would say we are at or above 50F. Ground temperature is typically 55 or so, and with about 1200' of pipe, I would say it comes close to that temp by the time it comes back around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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