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Gurgeh

More info on upcoming Rivian-derived Ford product

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25 minutes ago, Willwll313wll said:

Batteries for these vehicles need to be recyclable too, if they not already. Go all in in creating a truly green future for the world. 

https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e

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2 hours ago, mlhm5 said:

Explain how you go from 50K BEVs in 2021 to being competitive in a 1MM car market in 2025 when you are outsourcing the key BEV items (batteries/battery packs, AI to include autonomous, charging). Vertical integration is the winning strategy and VW is serious about BEVs, Ford is making a half-hearted effort and the analysts are not buying Ford's BEV line.

Unlike Tesla, Ford already has a strong profit source from full sized trucks to support its BEV projects with up front cash.

Theres no point to committing deeply  to lithium battery production if next gen batteries will be here inside ten years,

the current limitations on charging rate and storage will definitely change even in the next five years.

 

So yes, the entry into BEV has to be cautious for established ICE carmakers because the pace of change is just so rapid

and betting the farm on today's tech could be the betamax of the BEV world. Mind you, Ford's close links with VW

especially in Europe and use of their BEV platform, gives Ford a seat at the table. Ford also has a seat on the board of Rivian.

Edited by jpd80

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I would say the future of BEVs lies solely in the hands of battery development.....that and acknowledgement  of its inherent environmental impact ...which is still in its gestation whereas ICE is pretty well know, warts and all...

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Unlike Tesla, Ford already has a strong profit source from full sized trucks to support its BEV projects with up front cash.

Theres no point to committing deeply  to lithium battery production if next gen batteries will be here inside ten years,

the current limitations on charging rate and storage will definitely change even in the next five years.

 

So yes, the entry into BEV has to be cautious for established ICE carmakers because the pace of change is just so rapid

and betting the farm on today's tech could be the betamax of the BEV world. Mind you, Ford's close links with VW

especially in Europe and use of their BEV platform, gives Ford a seat at the table. Ford also has a seat on the board of Rivian.

When the second-largest auto manufacturer goes all-in for electric vehicles and states by 2025 20 to 25% of all the vehicles they will sell will be electric (that is BEV and not some variant of the Prius or Honda Clarity) shows that they understand the concept of disruptive innovation. If analysts believed Ford could be or were committed to being a major player in the BEV market the stock would not be $8 a share.

BTW, other than an agreement to use the charging network, Ford and VW have no other agreements to co-operate except to explore the possibility if there are any areas that they could.

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1 hour ago, Deanh said:

I would say the future of BEVs lies solely in the hands of battery development.....that and acknowledgement  of its inherent environmental impact ...which is still in its gestation whereas ICE is pretty well know, warts and all...

Tesla is 3 years ahead of anyone not currently manufacturing its own batteries/battery packs in cost and technology. In 3 years if attempts as of this date are not all-in those companies will be more than three years behind three years from now. VW has committed to manufacturing their own batteries, Tesla and BYD currently manufacture their own batteries. 

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12 minutes ago, mlhm5 said:

When the second-largest auto manufacturer goes all-in for electric vehicles and states by 2025 20 to 25% of all the vehicles they will sell will be electric (that is BEV and not some variant of the Prius or Honda Clarity) shows that they understand the concept of disruptive innovation. If analysts believed Ford could be or were committed to being a major player in the BEV market the stock would not be $8 a share.

BTW, other than an agreement to use the charging network, Ford and VW have no other agreements to co-operate except to explore the possibility if there are any areas that they could.

Unless you’ve been hiding under a rock, you would know an agreement was reached to:

1. Ford to access VW’s electric car platform

2. Ford to develop NG Amarok on NG Ranger platform 

3. Ford to develop NG VW Transporter as a version of Ford Transit.

4. VW to supply ford with Transit Connect based on NG Caddy.

 

you bet the alliance is strong and well, primarily for Europe and ROW but those are the areas of most need and reform

Edited by jpd80

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LOL!

"Argo is trying to develop technology that, within a few years, would allow cars to drive themselves without human help, but only in a contained area where conditions are more predictable." - Bryan Salesky CEO Argo - Good luck with LIDAR!

"Ford plans to introduce a vehicle in Europe made from VW components in 2023"

So much for BEVs and Ford!

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3 hours ago, mlhm5 said:

LOL!

"Argo is trying to develop technology that, within a few years, would allow cars to drive themselves without human help, but only in a contained area where conditions are more predictable." - Bryan Salesky CEO Argo - Good luck with LIDAR!

"Ford plans to introduce a vehicle in Europe made from VW components in 2023"

So much for BEVs and Ford!

They'll also have the Mustang Mach E before then and two other crossovers by 2023

Ford already has 100 AV equipped transit connects with delivery companies, they're

Geofenced for now while Argo develops high definition mapping for broader roll out.

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

They'll also have the Mustang Mach E before then and two other crossovers by 2023

Ford already has 100 AV equipped transit connects with delivery companies, they're

Geofenced for now while Argo develops high definition mapping for broader roll out.

There is not a single auto analyst out there that believes F will be anything but a bit player in the BEV market, otherwise, the stock would not be $8 a share. After the absolute disaster with Explorer, the analysts do not believe the announced change in management will make a difference.

IMO, the Explorer disaster does not give future customers the confidence that the same thing won't happen with Ford's first BEV. Maybe fanboys will buy the Mach-E but other potential customers will look more closely and either wait and see or just buy a Model Y.

Screen Shot 02-11-20 at 12.38 AM.PNG

Edited by mlhm5

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50 minutes ago, mlhm5 said:

There is not a single auto analyst out there that believes F will be anything but a bit player in the BEV market, otherwise, the stock would not be $8 a share. After the absolute disaster with Explorer, the analysts do not believe the announced change in management will make a difference.

IMO, the Explorer disaster does not give future customers the confidence that the same thing won't happen with Ford's first BEV. Maybe fanboys will buy the Mach-E but other potential customers will look more closely and either wait and see or just buy a Model Y.

Explorer is not a disaster, sales have already recovered. The bad start was entirely due to trying  to go too fast too early, nothing more nothing less. Five other vehicle launches since explorer have gone off without a hitch but Hackett never said boo about that, he let Adam Jonas think that Explorer was entirely responsible for the $3.6 B profit loss. It wasn't as there was a $2.2 B charge on pension funding.

 

You're right about Wall Street analysts, they cannot see how Ford will ramp up BEVs but that doesn't mean plans aren't already well advanced and I'd put that falure on Jim Hackett's inability to talk to Wall Street, one of his main duties is to sell the sizzle and sorry, he's just hopeless at doing that but behind the scenes Ford is busy with lots of really cool project

 

 

Here's a question for you, will model Y production and sales chop into model 3 sales or do you believe that both will increase?

Edited by jpd80

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56 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

You think Tesla is "un-buyable"?? You need a reality check ..LMAO!!

Tesla sold 367,500 vehicles in 2019 and still did not make a profit, hasn't done so in 17 years, yet the stock price is through the roof

because that's what Wall Street analysts want to see, they are the gods of share traders who want instant results

Maybe Wall Street bankers could take Tesla's debts and repackage them as a CDO with AAA rating for other investors.

Edited by jpd80

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9 hours ago, mlhm5 said:

Tesla is 3 years ahead of anyone not currently manufacturing its own batteries/battery packs in cost and technology. In 3 years if attempts as of this date are not all-in those companies will be more than three years behind three years from now. VW has committed to manufacturing their own batteries, Tesla and BYD currently manufacture their own batteries. 

Tesla buys their battery cells from Panasonic.  The cells are 21700 standard....which are made by other companies like Samsung.  There is nothing special about the battery cells used in Tesla cars.  I think people get confused by Panasonic making the battery cells for Tesla's American cars in space rented within the gigafactory.  

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While Tesla stays with lithium based batteries, they really aren't that much ahead and doubling down on that tech

means that they are less likely to switch before getting a satisfactory return on today's battery investments

where Ford is looking at next gen solid state battery tech with BMW & Hyundai

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, mlhm5 said:

There is not a single auto analyst out there that believes F will be anything but a bit player in the BEV market, otherwise, the stock would not be $8 a share. After the absolute disaster with Explorer, the analysts do not believe the announced change in management will make a difference.

IMO, the Explorer disaster does not give future customers the confidence that the same thing won't happen with Ford's first BEV. Maybe fanboys will buy the Mach-E but other potential customers will look more closely and either wait and see or just buy a Model Y.

 

hy·per·bo·le
/hīˈpərbəlē/
noun
  1. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
    "he vowed revenge with oaths and hyperboles"

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2 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

 

hy·per·bo·le
/hīˈpərbəlē/
noun
  1. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
    "he vowed revenge with oaths and hyperboles"

Ford keeps losing money in China, Europe, and the Middle East and Africa and if Bill Ford gave the thumbs up VW would buy them out tomorrow. 

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41 minutes ago, mlhm5 said:

Ford keeps losing money in China, Europe, and the Middle East and Africa and if Bill Ford gave the thumbs up VW would buy them out tomorrow. 

And Tesla has lost more money than it has earned producing EV vehicles...

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18 hours ago, mlhm5 said:

When the second-largest auto manufacturer goes all-in for electric vehicles and states by 2025 20 to 25% of all the vehicles they will sell will be electric (that is BEV and not some variant of the Prius or Honda Clarity) shows that they understand the concept of disruptive innovation. If analysts believed Ford could be or were committed to being a major player in the BEV market the stock would not be $8 a share.

BTW, other than an agreement to use the charging network, Ford and VW have no other agreements to co-operate except to explore the possibility if there are any areas that they could.

 

And you're ignoring WHY VW is doing that - they got caught with their pants down in Dieselgate and had nowhere else to turn.

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4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

I gave mlhm5 some valtrex for the next 7 days since he seems to be hung up on trolling as of late. 

Thank goodness, it was beginning to sound more like Ford will always fail based on what analysts "think"

Ford has a good mix of BEVs in the pipeline, something it could easily expand with more variants if needed.

Ford and GM both have very deep pockets, something Tesla still can't match (debt is now over $13 billion)

Edited by jpd80

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44 minutes ago, atomcat68 said:

He is sounding like a one dimensional movie villain. It's gotten to the point where I read his posts in Mr. Burns' voice from the Simpsons. 

 

I just re-read his posts in Mr. Burns voice...hilarious!!!!

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1 hour ago, twintornados said:

 

I just re-read his posts in Mr. Burns voice...hilarious!!!!

Now just read probowlers in Quagmires voice and snooters in Homer Simpsons or Barney.

Edited by MY93SHO

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3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Ford has a good mix of BEVs in the pipeline, something it could easily expand with more variants if needed.

Ford and GM both have very deep pockets, something Tesla still can't match (debt is now over $13 billion)

 

Good mix? Absolutely, they will be hitting every segment except a BEV sedan. Over the course of the next three model years Ford/Lincoln will introduce, at a minimum, 1) a sporty BEV Mustang crossover, 2) a BEV full sized pickup, 3) a BEV Transit van, 4) a large flagship super luxury BEV SUV, 4) a mid-sized mainstream BEV crossover, and 5) a mid-sized luxury BEV crossover. And that doesn't even count the BEVs Ford and VW will be jointly developing for the European market. By MY 2023, Ford and Lincoln might have more BEV models on the market than Tesla. Can FMC find enough batteries for all of them? Will they be class-leading products and can FMC sell enough of therm to take significant BEV market share away from Tesla? How fast does the BEV market grow? And how soon will they become profit centers for the company? We'll see.

Edited by Gurgeh

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