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I would imagine crossovers are already part of their trucks and utilities analysis. I hope Ford  presents some low cost offerings sooner than later. It’s needed in their line up. Being the puma here and finish off the eco sport as well. Puma looks way better. 

Edited by Oacjay98
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On 1/27/2020 at 12:28 PM, T-dubz said:


I agree. Subaru has the only wagons in the entire industry that sell in numbers high enough to matter. The other contenders are usually luxury brands like Volvo, Mercedes or bmw that charge so much for their wagons that it’s ok if they only sell a few of them. In 2018, wagons made up 1.4% of the entire market. The outback made up 1.2% so that left .2% for all the other wagons.

 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2019/10/19/subaru-outback-sales/

 

They have marketed their vehicles well and they definitely have a cult like following, which is why I don’t see ford poaching any of Subaru’s customers. 
 

the outback also starts at $26k. I don’t see ford selling this thing that cheap either. The edge starts at 31k and the escape starts right below 25k for comparison.

 

I hope I’m wrong, but im guessing this thing ends up more like the Buick Regal tour x wagon than Subaru Outback.

 

I think you’re right kinda but unlike Regal tourer, it should have a higher ride height, keep in mind that the crossover still has to give product space to the Edge above it.

 

This is going to be an interesting duck and weave for Ford as this is not a car but kinda sorta is.....

Edited by jpd80
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2 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

I would imagine crossovers are already part of their trucks and utilities analysis. I hope Ford  presents some low cost offerings sooner than later. It’s needed in their line up. Being the puma here and finish off the eco sport as well. Puma looks way better. 


The Puma is too expensive for the North American market IMO. People aren’t going to pay $22-30k for a Puma that it would need to be successful in NA. Ford needs a “cheap” product that can slot under the Ecosport and also improve the Ecosport, but not make it encroach on low end Escape sales. 
 

Ford needs something like the Kia Soul to slot under it-a Fwd only CUV like vehicle with just one engine choice and low option count on it. 

it would be like this:

Entry level CUV $17000k

Improved Ecosport $19-21k

Escape $25K

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Well you can get an eco sport for under that with the rebates on it. However it’s getting difficult to make a new vehicle under 20,000 and have any hope for steady profit in it. Sub 20k vehicles are going the way sub 10k vehicles did 20 years ago. 
 

Those buyers are going to be driven into 1-3 year old used vehicles. 

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10 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

You realize the Outback is just a lifted Legacy right?  The front ends (aside from lower bumper treatment) are identical.

 

 

Image result for 2020 subaru legacy sedan

Image result for 2020 subaru outback

Correct, and for a short time about 10-15 years ago, they gave the Legacy sedan the Outback treatment and called it the Outback Sedan.

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On 1/28/2020 at 9:46 PM, jasonj80 said:

Well you can get an eco sport for under that with the rebates on it. However it’s getting difficult to make a new vehicle under 20,000 and have any hope for steady profit in it. Sub 20k vehicles are going the way sub 10k vehicles did 20 years ago. 
 

Those buyers are going to be driven into 1-3 year old used vehicles. 


The problem with the Ecosport is that there isn’t a vehicle to backstop it. It’s covering the Fiesta/Focus price range. If it was a better vehicle and there was a cheaper but also profitable product under it, it would be doable. The FWD only CUV would still start 3-4K more then a entry level Fiesta did and you’d still have room for incentives on it and still eek a profit out. The new Ecosport would actually be more profitable because it’s price wouldn’t drop to the 16k range With incentives like it does now-it would be closer to the 20k range if this vehicle existed. 

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5 hours ago, silvrsvt said:


The problem with the Ecosport is that there isn’t a vehicle to backstop it. It’s covering the Fiesta/Focus price range. If it was a better vehicle and there was a cheaper but also profitable product under it, it would be doable. The FWD only CUV would still start 3-4K more then a entry level Fiesta did and you’d still have room for incentives on it and still eek a profit out. The new Ecosport would actually be more profitable because it’s price wouldn’t drop to the 16k range With incentives like it does now-it would be closer to the 20k range if this vehicle existed. 

Perhaps this is where the Puma can possibly play a part....,

 

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16 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Perhaps this is where the Puma can possibly play a part....,

 


I don’t think the puma is the answer. It looks more “premium” than the Ecosport and I’d guess it would be more expensive. I know a lot of you guys like the styling of the puma, but I think it looks odd from certain angles. I’m not sure how well it would sell here.

 

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

It hasn't as Puma range is now being expanded to include automatic transmission by the end of the year

so the Puma and Export could either double team or be region specific.

Double teaming makes a lot of sense but the Puma has been described as Euro-only... Maybe in the next generation... When they're on C2...

 

But... There's still that mysterious entry CUV for the american market, the one whose development was fast aproved

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12 minutes ago, passis said:

Double teaming makes a lot of sense but the Puma has been described as Euro-only... Maybe in the next generation... When they're on C2...

 

But... There's still that mysterious entry CUV for the american market, the one whose development was fast aproved


double teaming the subcompact market makes zero sense. I would assume there’s  not enough profit on these vehicles and there’s not enough buyers for something that small to justify two models.

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3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Perhaps this is where the Puma can possibly play a part....,

 

 

The Puma isn't all that much cheaper then the Escape in the UK-I think about 2.5 Pounds or so? Ford doesn't need a premium product like that in NA-it won't be supported at that price range...the Escape is the smallest thing that can command good money. 

 

Ford needs cheap and cheaper under the Escape. 

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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The Puma isn't all that much cheaper then the Escape in the UK-I think about 2.5 Pounds or so? Ford doesn't need a premium product like that in NA-it won't be supported at that price range...the Escape is the smallest thing that can command good money. 

 

Ford needs cheap and cheaper under the Escape. 

They not like for like, the Pumas you’re looking at are hybrids with a lot more in built cost and don’t directly correlate to what will be offered there at the end of the year, Europe notoriously starts off with more premium versions and then adds lower series

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15 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

They not like for like, the Pumas you’re looking at are hybrids with a lot more in built cost and don’t directly correlate to what will be offered there at the end of the year, Europe notoriously starts off with more premium versions and then adds lower series

 

But given the market in the EU/UK-hybrids and BEVs are the path going forward. Just looking at the Pricing structure of Ford in UK, there isn't much room between each model...and I don't Ford has mentioned they are doing a gas only Puma

FordUK.thumb.PNG.e9e7c8bacc5d3a94b88c4855109bf05c.PNG

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But given the market in the EU/UK-hybrids and BEVs are the path going forward. Just looking at the Pricing structure of Ford in UK, there isn't much room between each model...and I don't Ford has mentioned they are doing a gas only Puma

FordUK.thumb.PNG.e9e7c8bacc5d3a94b88c4855109bf05c.PNG

 

On point, the Puma is roughly $4,000 less than base Kuga.

In a FWD like Puma, an automatic option generally implies an ICE 

 

The cheapest vehicle on that screen shot is the Fiesta is nearly $21,000,

the new Kuga starts at roughly $31,000. As I said, pricing is not like for like.

Ford Europe stacks more smaller vehicles in there because they have to.

Edited by jpd80
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On 1/27/2020 at 5:39 PM, ausrutherford said:

 

Subaru has sold a Legacy wagon is other markets like Japan. And the Outback is not a built from scratch crossover. It's a lifted Legacy wagon.

 

 

 

 

 Subaru hasn't sold a Legacy wagon in Japan or anywhere for about 10 years.

 

The last generation and the current gen Outback was designed to be a CUV from the beginning. There is no wagon version of the car. 

 

Quote

The Outback and Legacy share a heck of a lot more than just a platform. 

 

That's my point. You are making an artificial distinction between car and CUV. Edge and Fusion and S-Max share a heck lot more than just platform too. In fact, Edge has more in common with S-Max than anything else. The fact the Outback shares some windows as Legacy doesn't mean Outback is not a CUV. Just like previous gen Escape and C-Max... but I don't hear anyone trying to argue Escape is not a SUV because it has the same greenhouse as a car. Outback is considered a wagon by some because the historical association of the nameplate to Legacy, not the actual design or form factor. If Subaru never sold a Legacy and just came out with the Outback as is today, most people would say it is a CUV. There wouldn't even be any debate. 

 

If Ford came out with a Outback like vehicle, no one will mistake it for a wagon. This is also why I think calling it a Mondeo or Fusion is kind of a mistake.

Edited by bzcat
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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 Subaru hasn't sold a Legacy wagon in Japan or anywhere for about 10 years.

 

The last generation and the current gen Outback was designed to be a CUV from the beginning. There is no wagon version of the car. 

 

 

That's my point. You are making an artificial distinction between car and CUV. Edge and Fusion and S-Max share a heck lot more than just platform too. In fact, Edge has more in common with S-Max than anything else. The fact the Outback shares some windows as Legacy doesn't mean Outback is not a CUV. Just like previous gen Escape and C-Max... but I don't hear anyone trying to argue Escape is not a SUV because it has the same greenhouse as a car. Outback is considered a wagon by some because the historical association of the nameplate to Legacy, not the actual design or form factor. If Subaru never sold a Legacy and just came out with the Outback as is today, most people would say it is a CUV. There wouldn't even be any debate. 

 

If Ford came out with a Outback like vehicle, no one will mistake it for a wagon. This is also why I think calling it a Mondeo or Fusion is kind of a mistake.

It would have been a mistake five or ten years ago but now, I wonder if the market is ready to embrace the right kind of utilities.

Utilities are becoming more car like so it stands to reason that cars will become more utility like. This is going to be a very interesting

chapter in vehicle development where buyers retreat from low suspensions and trick handling to more practical vehicles. Equally, this

could be the industry believing its own hype, pushing the envelope until buyers push back by saying no.

Edited by jpd80
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image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

Looking at these 3 Subaru’s, I think it’s fairly easy to see one is different from the others. You might not think it’s a wagon, it might not be classified as a wagon, but I’d guess most people still think it’s a wagon.

 

i think for this vehicle not to be a flop, it’s gonna have to look a lot more like an suv than the outback does.


I would prefer the new fusion to be a coupe like suv similar to maybe the Audi q8 or the VW atlas cross sport, or just make it the ICE version of the Mach e.

2020-Audi-Q8-012_1920.jpg?wid=414&bgc=00

HEROPROFILE_BSUV5_COUNTRY_CLUB_1066_Ver1

Edited by T-dubz
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I think we need to step back from Subaru, they're a niche product and the way those vehicles are seen

is going to be different to the cash similar products from GM & Ford will be perceived, especially now

 that sedans are off the table for those two brands.

Edited by jpd80
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5 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

I think we need to step back from Subaru, they're a niche product an the way those vehicles are seen

is going to be different to the cash similar products from GM & Ford will be perceived, especially now

 that sedans are off the table for those two brands.

0r are they? A Mondeo 5 door will be part of the new model line-up. A sedan could be slotted into North American production fairly quickly and it looks like Ford will have excess capacity to build such a model.  

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1 minute ago, Trader 10 said:

0r are they? A Mondeo 5 door will be part of the new model line-up. A sedan could be slotted into North American production fairly quickly and it looks like Ford will have excess capacity to build such a model.  

Keep an eye on the unifor contract coming up this year. That might give an indication of what’s coming. 

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I think it would be wonderful if UNIFOR could pick up Fusion / Lincoln crossover as well as new Edge/ Nautilus 

That would be a just outcome as far as I’m concerned, leaving Mexico as much capacity as possible.

 

Looks  like Ford is at a loss to know what to do about FRAP, NG Mustang is part of the UAW agreement but what else there?

Edited by jpd80
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