Honda Pilot vs. Ford Explorer: All-New 3-Row SUV Takes on a Segment Stalwart

[PREMiERdrum]

28 minutes ago, kyle said:

 

I've been in the industry for a long time myself and have to disagree about your part regarding customer's only choosing one brand and want to decide which model they want. Maybe 25 years ago, when brand loyalty meant something but not today. No way. There are way to many good brands out there and customer's want to look at vehicle choices. Maybe in the truck market or the luxury market they may be more brand loyalty, but not in mid-priced segments. 

 

We can go around and around on this but I just don't see it. 

Have a neighbor who has had Honda's forever-get's totaled in her Pilot by a cop car who ran thru a light and she was debating going back and getting another Pilot. I suggested she look at the Telluride and her co-worker mentioned the same thing. Not sure if she ever looked at the Kia but she is driving a new Subaru Ascent. I could care less what the ATP is if I'm purchasing a vehicle-I want the best product/price that I can afford and am factoring in safety, quality, dealer network, etc......10 years ago, I would of never considered an Korean nameplate-now you have to be blind not to look at them and make your own decisions. There are way to many great products out there for consumers to choose from. 

 

Things have gotten a bit conflated here. What I'm saying is that by the time the consumer actually makes it to a dealership to test drive something, they've already made the purchasing decision in most situations. If any comparison is being done, it is likely between same-make models on the same lot. 

 

30 years ago, test drives were what earned conquest sales. Today, it's marketing, brand awareness, and word of mouth that drive conquest sales. Customers are absolutely less brand loyal than ever, which is why the brands doing well today are the ones who have had consistently good marketing programs in the recent past. 

 

From the dealer's perspective if they've gotten the customer to the lot they've more than likely already made a sale. 

 

[jcartwright99]

19 minutes ago, PREMiERdrum said:

 

Things have gotten a bit conflated here. What I'm saying is that by the time the consumer actually makes it to a dealership to test drive something, they've already made the purchasing decision in most situations. If any comparison is being done, it is likely between same-make models on the same lot. 

 

30 years ago, test drives were what earned conquest sales. Today, it's marketing, brand awareness, and word of mouth that drive conquest sales. Customers are absolutely less brand loyal than ever, which is why the brands doing well today are the ones who have had consistently good marketing programs in the recent past. 

 

From the dealer's perspective if they've gotten the customer to the lot they've more than likely already made a sale. 

 

Yep! Even more so if it’s trendy. How many BMW and Tesla sales happened before even a test drive or actually seeing it in person. A lot due to the badge.

[jpd80]

While we go on about comparisons of materials, I bet it doesn’t get that far with potential Telluride buyers, they see an absolute price bargain first and the opportunity to add some low cost luxury. The fact that Explorer sales appear to be recovering is also a sign that customers are sticking with Explorer but maybe waiting until now before buying one.

 

I don’t think there’s any clear view on this until we see how sales go over spring and summer and what effect changes have on buyer attitudes.

[bzcat]

2 hours ago, PREMiERdrum said:

I'm in a family that is very much directly involved with the industry. 

 

According to them, the vast majority of customers only do comparative test drives of same-make vehicles... like coming to the Ford store to drive an Escape vs. Edge or Explorer vs. Expedition. Automakers - or at least Ford - are doing more meaningful market research than ever to identify exactly what target buyers are looking for in hyper-specific segments and in particular buying patterns. The idea of bouncing from a Honda store to Chevy to Ford to drive Pilots, Traverses, and Explorers is far outside of normal for today's average customer. Thus the brand - of both the maker and the nameplate - are arguably more important now than ever. 

 

The Telluride has a nicer interior than Explorer... mainly noticeable in the rear seating areas. This is surely more expensive... is that cost recuperated? What is the balance of total volume of Telluride/Palisade sales and at what ATP to keep the program profitable?

 

Ford gambled with the switch back to RWD and a brand new platform, and perhaps they were too conservative in certain interior appointments. However, the decisions weren't made out of laziness or ineptitude... they were made to support a specific business case. And, from all I can tell, even the disastrous launch hasn't impacted the financial expectations of the program. 

 

They are making some very small adjustments to interior materials as a direct response to pre-launch feedback. They're also going to sell at least 200,000 copies in 2020 and make a mint doing it. 

 

Ford is the incumbent player in the segment... largest volume and therefore has a different value assessment than insurgent players like Hyundai. My point is basically that Ford as an incumbent player can count on certain level of repeat customers. Hyundai can't do that with Palisade and Telluride. Every customer they get is basically a conquest because they've never been in this segment (unless you count the short lived Hyundai Veracruz from about 10 years ago). And that is reflected in the product decisions they made. 

 

Ford is basically content on keeping what they have with the Explorer. It's playing defense so to speak.The product they turned out is not one that will attract new customers to the segment or conquest customers already in the segment from another brand. 

[kyle]

2 hours ago, PREMiERdrum said:

 

Things have gotten a bit conflated here. What I'm saying is that by the time the consumer actually makes it to a dealership to test drive something, they've already made the purchasing decision in most situations. If any comparison is being done, it is likely between same-make models on the same lot. 

 

30 years ago, test drives were what earned conquest sales. Today, it's marketing, brand awareness, and word of mouth that drive conquest sales. Customers are absolutely less brand loyal than ever, which is why the brands doing well today are the ones who have had consistently good marketing programs in the recent past. 

 

From the dealer's perspective if they've gotten the customer to the lot they've more than likely already made a sale. 

 

yea you are spot on and that makes sense about arriving at dealer with most decisions made. 
 

again general perspective since customers have variables regarding trades and what they qualify for. 

[akirby]

49 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

Ford is basically content on keeping what they have with the Explorer. It's playing defense so to speak.The product they turned out is not one that will attract new customers to the segment or conquest customers already in the segment from another brand. 

I disagree.  It’s a great looking vehicle and the ST has no competition at that price point.  The interior is not so bad as to turn off a potential buyer.  

[SoonerLS]

33 minutes ago, akirby said:

I disagree.  It’s a great looking vehicle and the ST has no competition at that price point.  The interior is not so bad as to turn off a potential buyer.  

I dunno--it's a ground-up new vehicle (something that's exceedingly rare these days), but it looks like an evolution of the old Explorer. That sounds like they were playing defense to me. If they'd been swinging for the bleachers, they'd have come out with something as different as the FWD Explorer was from the BOF truck it replaced.

 

Not that what they did was wrong, mind you (I agree that it's a handsome vehicle), but it was the safe play.

[hbalek]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I disagree.  It’s a great looking vehicle and the ST has no competition at that price point.  The interior is not so bad as to turn off a potential buyer.  

I'm a conquest customer in that I've never owned an SUV let alone a Ford Performance model. My 2020 Explorer ST is my first brand new vehicle since my 2003 Infiniti G35 sedan.  After that I owned 2 certified pre-owned Lincolns, a 2010 and 2013 MKZ AWD.  At the time of my latest purchase, I was also considering a CPO Continental, Nautilus or MKZ.  When I saw and drove it, I absolutely fell in love with my Rapid Red ST!!!!!  Yes it has some flaws and issues but overall I'm still very excited every time I drive it, after 3 months and 3000 miles of ownership!

Edited February 27, 2020 by hbalek

[jpd80]

10 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The changes are in response to feedback, it’s also coming much earlier than already planned updates. Most definitely ford stung into some early action.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, akirby said:

 

But probably already in the works before job 1, right?  It's not like they were surprised at the public reaction.

Sorry I didn't answer your post earlier but that also gave me time to think about what you said

I'm wondering if Jim Baumbick's Enterprise Product Management team reviewed the original

market research and discovered that certain selections were no longer perceived as optimal,

maybe that's where we could see somem morerolling changes.....

Edited February 27, 2020 by jpd80

[MKII]

How much money did Ford NA save from not having to develop 5 new cars?  Actually if using Fords past of what is considered a car then the Fiesta ST, Focus ST, Fusion Sport, Fusion Hybrid & Fusion Plug-in-Hybrid should be added as well. So in total 10 new development program budgets were kept in the accounts right? Never mind the money they are saving by not selling vehicles that they say did not make profits. Never mind the HUGE profits they are making on what they say are BIG profit making vehicles.

 

But it sure appears that whatever new stuff they are trying to sell (but not Lincoln if Akirby is correct)  the penny pinching low rent looking stuff seems to be as obvious as the nose on your face, according to many posters here and the auto-rag reviewers. 

 

Priority budget is what is going into the Focus based Mach-e, the Bronco and wee Bronco? Must be because the new Explorer sure did not seem to get the love, the new Escape and its Hybrid mates don't exude anything special. Lots of old tech still found on them.

 

Hacketts make as cheap as you can, sell as high as possible mentality is so 80's it's sad.

 

 

[probowler]

But isn't Ford still selling the focus and other cars outside of America? So really they didn't save any money.  Just testing and certification costs.

[snooter]

Escape styling wise reeks utilitarian but is not not overtly bad...mundane exterior that shows no styling excitment was the safe bet in ford thought process...the interior is garbage cheap though (3cyl gerbil motor is another matter as well)...ford biggest problem is the asians have caught up and surpased ford...albeit it is an issue but when you only sell trucks one would rather not have the raised station wagons of other brands really cutting into your cheap as hell built raised station wagons...course baby and toddler bronc will fix all of this

 

-No chance in hell we could have ever had a lincoln mark viii coupe today-

Edited February 27, 2020 by snooter

[SoonerLS]

2 hours ago, probowler said:

But isn't Ford still selling the focus and other cars outside of America? So really they didn't save any money.  Just testing and certification costs.

Testing and certification costs aren't insignificant, and neither are the costs of changing the cars for local markets. You're also forgetting the Taurus and Flex, which were NA-only.

[probowler]

6 minutes ago, SoonerLS said:

Testing and certification costs aren't insignificant, and neither are the costs of changing the cars for local markets. You're also forgetting the Taurus and Flex, which were NA-only.

No, I didn't forget about them. I ignored them because they're not global, and can't be imported. Also isn't the Flex already discontinued?

[silvrsvt]

12 hours ago, kyle said:

 

I've been in the industry for a long time myself and have to disagree about your part regarding customer's only choosing one brand and want to decide which model they want. Maybe 25 years ago, when brand loyalty meant something but not today. No way. There are way to many good brands out there and customer's want to look at vehicle choices. Maybe in the truck market or the luxury market they may be more brand loyalty, but not in mid-priced segments. 

 

Counterpoint-Most people don't want to play the pricing game with different dealerships either. 

 

Just look at this way-my last car buying experience buying my wife's Escape-I used plan pricing and it still took 4-5 hours to buy a new car from start to finish off the lot. That is kinda ridiculous. 

[silvrsvt]

4 hours ago, MKII said:

Priority budget is what is going into the Focus based Mach-e, the Bronco and wee Bronco? Must be because the new Explorer sure did not seem to get the love, the new Escape and its Hybrid mates don't exude anything special. Lots of old tech still found on them.

 

One of the issues with the Explorer was its on again and off again development process. I believe it was supposed to be out a year earlier then it was and was pushed back/stopped by Fields back in 2018 or so, since we got another minor refresh of the last Gen Explorer 18 months before the new one came out. Seems like one the program was finally greenlited for production, it seems like Ford spent more time/$$$ on the Aviator to get it right (or at least the press isn't raking it through the coals since the last  one stop being built in 2005) before it launched and is now focusing on "fixing" perceived Explorer issues. 

 

The Escape is a different situation-I believe the pricing of the Escape has been a shitshow since it launched in 2013-a fully loaded SEL costing more then a base Ti model, causing the SEL to be dropped a year or two later and then in 2017, an Escape SE model having 90% of the same equipment as 2013 Ti model at a cheaper price point. Then the decontenting of the 2019 MY. The 2020 was a correction of all of that to fix the pricing and profitability of it. 

[akirby]

10 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

I dunno--it's a ground-up new vehicle (something that's exceedingly rare these days), but it looks like an evolution of the old Explorer. That sounds like they were playing defense to me. If they'd been swinging for the bleachers, they'd have come out with something as different as the FWD Explorer was from the BOF truck it replaced.

 

Not that what they did was wrong, mind you (I agree that it's a handsome vehicle), but it was the safe play.

I’d counter that the previous Explorer already had good conquest sales especially with the Sport model.  So no need to reinvent the wheel completely.  So I would say playing it smart rather than safe.  

[jasonj80]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Just look at this way-my last car buying experience buying my wife's Escape-I used plan pricing and it still took 4-5 hours to buy a new car from start to finish off the lot. That is kinda ridiculous. 

Just tell them upfront it should be no more than an hour;  Paper work should all be done, no more than an hour to sign and tell them that upfront if you're using plan. 

 

I do understand if you just walk in and pick a car off the lot and they need to prep it etc, but if you're just going back to pick the car up or you've ordered or put a deposit down the day before the car it should be ready. I don't have the attention span or the time to be sitting in a dealership for that amount of time, I would walk out. With the new cars make sure you have the Ford/Lincoln app downloaded already and have a user name and password makes it easier on the sales person,  get your phone setup and start playing with the settings in the car (You're not going to break it) then when he/she/they come out you can ask the questions and you're off. 

I'm sure most sales people think I'm a d*** but here's my money lets go.

[silvrsvt]

7 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

I do understand if you just walk in and pick a car off the lot and they need to prep it etc,

 

That's what we more or less did. 

 

When I ordered my Mustang back in 2006, I told them I wanted that night (it showed up the day before)-they had it prepped and ready in about 2 hours which is reasonable. 

[akirby]

When I bought my F150 at a small rural dealership I spent a total of 2 hours there.  That included a test drive, 10 minutes deciding on wheels (they had 2 identical trucks with different wheels), trade-in appraisal (they gave me what I asked for - no haggling), all paperwork including Ford Credit financing (to get the extra rebate) and delivery prep and orientation.

 

Most purchases have been 2-3 hours max - with X plan which helps.

[jasonj80]

5 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

That's what we more or less did. 

 

When I ordered my Mustang back in 2006, I told them I wanted that night (it showed up the day before)-they had it prepped and ready in about 2 hours which is reasonable. 

 

Then I can understand, but I know people that spend all day going from person to person when they were just picking up the car. Introducing me to the service dept, finance guy, porter etc. 

[sho94_2000]

22 hours ago, probowler said:

Does anyone remember the issue of exhaust fumes leaking into the PI Explorer Cab?  It was poisoning officers. I believe it was solved a while ago, but does anyone remember what the issue was and how Ford fixed it?

Just kinda curious.

I’m not sure Ford knows why that was happening.  But the fix was to install turn down tips on the pre 2020 models.  
 

The 2020 has the same thing.  Turn down tips but they are encased in a fake, straight out the back exhaust tip that’s chrome.    
 

Kudos to the marketing team that came up with the “we did that to eliminate the soot build up” reason.  That was very clever.  Complete BS but a great way to market it.  

[jasonj80]

11 minutes ago, sho94_2000 said:

I

Kudos to the marketing team that came up with the “we did that to eliminate the soot build up” reason.  That was very clever.  Complete BS but a great way to market it.  

It is not a marking team, It's science. BMW, GM, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes all do it now to reduce soot buildup as well. Only company that doesn't is Tesla. 

[rmc523]

12 hours ago, hbalek said:

I'm a conquest customer in that I've never owned an SUV let alone a Ford Performance model. My 2020 Explorer ST is my first brand new vehicle since my 2003 Infiniti G35 sedan.  After that I owned 2 certified pre-owned Lincolns, a 2010 and 2013 MKZ AWD.  At the time of my latest purchase, I was also considering a CPO Continental, Nautilus or MKZ.  When I saw and drove it, I absolutely fell in love with my Rapid Red ST!!!!!  Yes it has some flaws and issues but overall I'm still very excited every time I drive it, after 3 months and 3000 miles of ownership!

 

How dare you?  Didn't you get the message that you're supposed to hate it and that it's absolutely horrible because a magazine or two said so?

[sho94_2000]

58 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

It is not a marking team, It's science. BMW, GM, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes all do it now to reduce soot buildup as well. Only company that doesn't is Tesla. 

It’s no coincidence that the “fix” for the previous generation Explorers is the exact route Ford went with for the new ones. 
 

I agree that there is some tangible benefits with regards to soot but the main driver (Can’t forget the obvious “in my opinion”) is the CO issue.  
 

The European implementation is not nearly as complicated as Fords solution.  The exhaust dumps behind the bumper out of sight where Ford has a rather complicated tip design.