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Perhaps I should have posted this on the Bloomberg/Hackett thread but that seems to be preoccupied with our latest health crisis.

In any case, as I have previously posted on another thread, I wanted to replace my SHO, not because I was having issues with it or did not like it, but solely to give myself some warranty coverage as it was pushing 120,000 miles.  And I should add, the SHO was probably the last new car I will buy as I'm a firm believer  now in the CPO concept.  

 

So, no CPO SHO's that I liked and less than 500 miles away so I started looking for Fusion Sports and at the suggestion of a BON poster, also MKZ's with the 3.0T, AWD.  As I noted in the Sport thread I  had started, I found a CPO MKZ with a great Carfax and CPO and bought it.  I never would have looked at an MKZ unless someone had not pointed that out to me as an option.  I have since found all sorts You Tube videos featuring the 3.0T MKZ that extoll its virtues.

 

That set me to  thinking.  Did I EVER see an ad for the MKZ? In particular a 3.0T?  Nope!  If Commander Cody and his Lost Planet Airmen were still alive, THIS is the "Hot Rod Lincoln" they would be singing about today.  ( I recognize two or three regulars would know who I was referring to)    What a great car!

 

Today I read how MKZ sales are down as it heads toward the Ford  "out of production scrap yard".  Yeah I know, even when you build a car in Mexico with an ATP of $50g Ford can't make a profit.  And with Hackett's brilliant move to demonstrate he was a man of action and would get Ford out of the car business, that did NOTHING to help MKZ or any Ford car sales.  And by the way, I  don't think it did anything to boost the financial worlds opinion of him either.

 

Add the MKZ  3.0T to the list of Ford vehicles that could have had a long and profitable life if only they had some attention from a marketing perspective. And while looking for a car, I had plenty of conversations with seasoned sales guys who  were pissing and moaning about Hackett's decision.  

I  get the ATP issue when it comes to US built small cars.  But cars made in Mexico????

 

Last point, I'm at my local elementary school Friday night where the grand kids  were in a "production".   As I looked around the parking lot, for sure I saw plenty of SUV/crossover types- my two sons by the way, their  wives drive  Expeditions and they drive Ford pick ups.  But I sure did see a lot of new sedans- and they were all probably closer to $50g than $20G.

 

Hopefully Ford will wake up to the fact that sedans are NOT dead.  I recognize, a minority opinion.

 

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Well, even the mighty Accord dropped to 18K sales last month. It sold twice that rate when sedans were all the rage.

I'm wondering if Lincoln could still get a sedan version of the Mach E, or maybe even the long begged for LincStang.

They may just be waiting to see how Caddy fairs with the new CT4 &5.

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22 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Perhaps I should have posted this on the Bloomberg/Hackett thread but that seems to be preoccupied with our latest health crisis.

In any case, as I have previously posted on another thread, I wanted to replace my SHO, not because I was having issues with it or did not like it, but solely to give myself some warranty coverage as it was pushing 120,000 miles.  And I should add, the SHO was probably the last new car I will buy as I'm a firm believer  now in the CPO concept.  

 

So, no CPO SHO's that I liked and less than 500 miles away so I started looking for Fusion Sports and at the suggestion of a BON poster, also MKZ's with the 3.0T, AWD.  As I noted in the Sport thread I  had started, I found a CPO MKZ with a great Carfax and CPO and bought it.  I never would have looked at an MKZ unless someone had not pointed that out to me as an option.  I have since found all sorts You Tube videos featuring the 3.0T MKZ that extoll its virtues.

 

That set me to  thinking.  Did I EVER see an ad for the MKZ? In particular a 3.0T?  Nope!  If Commander Cody and his Lost Planet Airmen were still alive, THIS is the "Hot Rod Lincoln" they would be singing about today.  ( I recognize two or three regulars would know who I was referring to)    What a great car!

 

Today I read how MKZ sales are down as it heads toward the Ford  "out of production scrap yard".  Yeah I know, even when you build a car in Mexico with an ATP of $50g Ford can't make a profit.  And with Hackett's brilliant move to demonstrate he was a man of action and would get Ford out of the car business, that did NOTHING to help MKZ or any Ford car sales.  And by the way, I  don't think it did anything to boost the financial worlds opinion of him either.

 

Add the MKZ  3.0T to the list of Ford vehicles that could have had a long and profitable life if only they had some attention from a marketing perspective. And while looking for a car, I had plenty of conversations with seasoned sales guys who  were pissing and moaning about Hackett's decision.  

I  get the ATP issue when it comes to US built small cars.  But cars made in Mexico????

 

Last point, I'm at my local elementary school Friday night where the grand kids  were in a "production".   As I looked around the parking lot, for sure I saw plenty of SUV/crossover types- my two sons by the way, their  wives drive  Expeditions and they drive Ford pick ups.  But I sure did see a lot of new sedans- and they were all probably closer to $50g than $20G.

 

Hopefully Ford will wake up to the fact that sedans are NOT dead.  I recognize, a minority opinion.

 

blame market fluctuations and demand...Sedans are anything but hot, however basically whats being released now are really nothing more than sedans with taller top hats...so, if the market turns again, expect Ford to veer that way rather quickly.

Edited by Deanh
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I had a 2017 MKZ 3.0 CPO. It had a ton of problems. It was a Ford car of some sort (press fleet, management pool, tester?) I think it had every option that you could get on the drivers package. It had low miles when I bought it. After a few months it was clear that it was a rough and beaten start to this car so I ditched it at a slight loss and got a Fusion. My life was slightly more chaotic then and I didn't have the time to keep taking it back to the dealer. Looking back I miss the power and electronic gadgets. Although, I will say the 3.0 is almost too much for that platform.

 

That brings me to this. I love cars. Always have. The tend to ride and handle better. However, as I've driven my Fusion for almost 3 years now the lack of utility has started to get exposed. There is nothing wrong with it when you look at it by itself. It's when you look at the price and realize for slightly more I could have more room, utility, virtually the same gas mileage, just as nice ride, and some even half just as good handling in a CUV. I don't like that I've come that conclusion. However, I think that is why sedans are dying as the masses tend to think this way. Performance sedans/coupes will always have their place. For the majority of the people though, SUV/CUV offer too many pluses compared to sedans to offset the additional costs. It pains me to say though.

 

The sedan market will continue to tank. Nissan is learning the race towards the sales volume in low margin cars can put you on the verge of bankruptcy. Impala is gone. I have a feeling their will be more to die in the next few years. Their still is a market it for them for now, but for how long? 

Edited by jcartwright99
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28 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Add the MKZ  3.0T to the list of Ford vehicles that could have had a long and profitable life if only they had some attention from a marketing perspective. And while looking for a car, I had plenty of conversations with seasoned sales guys who  were pissing and moaning about Hackett's decision.  

I  get the ATP issue when it comes to US built small cars.  But cars made in Mexico????

 

Last point, I'm at my local elementary school Friday night where the grand kids  were in a "production".   As I looked around the parking lot, for sure I saw plenty of SUV/crossover types- my two sons by the way, their  wives drive  Expeditions and they drive Ford pick ups.  But I sure did see a lot of new sedans- and they were all probably closer to $50g than $20G.

 

Hopefully Ford will wake up to the fact that sedans are NOT dead.  I recognize, a minority opinion.

 

Sedans aren't dead, just Ford isn't investing in them in the North American market for now.

 

Personally I think they are just front loading more important/profitable vehicles for the next three years:

Bronco

Bronco Sport (lower end of the market)

Mach E (foot in the door EV for NA, compliance vehicle for the EU/UK)

F-150 refresh

Ranger Redo

Continental BEV CUV flagship

Fusion wagon/sportback/whatever you want to call it

 

After that we will start seeing more "affordable" vehicles

C based Truck

Transit Connect built in NA

Some sort of new 3 row CUV that slots under the Edge/above the Escape

Replacement for the Ecosport that is a better fit for EU/US tastes and not hamstrung being designed for BRIC markets. 

 

The Fusion wagon most likely would be the starting point for a new Sedan or even a Luxury car product for Lincoln. Lets see where the market is in another 5 years or so.

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1 minute ago, jcartwright99 said:

That brings me to this. I love cars. Always have. The tend to ride and handle better. However, as I've driven my Fusion for almost 3 years now the lack of utility has started to get exposed. There is nothing wrong with it when you look at it by itself. It's when you look at the price and realize for slightly more I could have more room, utility, virtually the same gas mileage, just as nice ride, and some even half just as good handling in a CUV. I don't like that I've come that conclusion. However, I think that is why sedans are dying as the masses tend to think this way. Performance sedans/coupes will always have their place. For the majority of the people though, SUV/CUV offer too many pluses compared to sedans to offset the additional costs. It pains me to say though.

 

The sedan market will continue to tank. Nissan is learning the race towards the sales volume in low margin cars can put you on the verge of bankruptcy. Impala is gone. I have a feeling their will be more to die in the next few years. Their still is a market it for them for now, but for how long? 

 

That is exactly the point I came to-I have an SHO just like Bob and to be honest its more CUV then Sedan, though not as much so as the old 500/Taurus/Sable/Monetary.

 

My wife has an Escape and to be honest, we both rather drive that instead of the SHO, just because the SHO is so friggen long and is a slightly pain in the butt to park due to its size. The Escape handles pretty good, has decent pickup for around town driving (not nearly as strong on the highway as the SHO) and actually fits same length items into it slightly easier due to its configuration. 

 

Sedans will hit a point where they don't lose sales, but if you have 8-10 car companies competing in a market that can only support maybe 3-4 of them, well that is the issue. 

 

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I still hold out hope that Lincoln will replace the MKZ with a new sedan. Here is my case...

 

-When Ford announced they were leaving the sedan market, Lincoln stated they were not and they were still committed to sedans...ok this was over 2 years ago but still holds promise!

-In a June 2018 dealer training presentation (in MI) they discussed at length their design esthetic and showed renderings of the just shown Aviator concept, and current models BUT also ended with a few quick slides of swoopy, slick sedans/coupes...why show this to dealers if nothing of the sort was coming down the road? Remember lead times are long in this industry!

-The UAW contract mentioned Flat Rock will build "Mustang and its derivatives" The MKZ replacement was expected to go to Flat Rock years back, and this wording is unusual in its use...all Mustangs are built there, and the Mach E is already known to be going to Mexico, so I doubt this is just about the Shelby editions.

-The recent Indeed job post about a Quality position for the next generation 2023 Mustang looking for "Ford and Lincoln level of quality"...again, odd, why mention Lincoln if no Lincoln product will be in there by then?

-The next Mustang now looks to be a 2023 model, out in 2022, and was delayed a few years, so maybe there WILL be a Mustang based Lincoln sedan/4 door coupe to fill in as their sole sedan...?

2018 Lincoln sketch.jpg

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There was a CD6 sedan planned but it was put on hold to focus on other projects like the new BEV Continental.   It's probably not off the table entirely but it depends on how many resources they have to put on other higher priority projects.

 

If something is going to happen it might coincide with the new Edge/Nautilus in a couple of years.

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I think luxury sedans will always be desirable, but I doubt we'll ever see mainstream sedan sales rebound. Mainstream buyers are always going to buy the biggest, roomiest vehicle they can afford.

 

The sketch posted above looks very promising. It looks like a liftback.

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The auto trends are ciclic. The new trend of high ride vehicles (crossovers/SUVs) is not new. Here some pics of the 1937/38 Fords, as high as a 2020 Explorer, with no trunks... in other words, a SUV/crossover of today...   In 10 or 20 years, the low ride, long and wide vehicles, like in the late 60s could be the trend , again...

 

250px-1937_Ford_Tudor_Sedan.jpg

1938_Ford_V8_(14610287655).jpg

Edited by falconlover 1
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One reason is many car buyers expect discounts and rebates, going back to the 1970's. But, call it an 'SUV' and people will empty wallets. Also, pickups are status symbols, big 4 door 'daily drivers', and again, no one complains about the prices. So, high profit wins, but for how long?

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1 hour ago, 630land said:

One reason is many car buyers expect discounts and rebates, going back to the 1970's. But, call it an 'SUV' and people will empty wallets. Also, pickups are status symbols, big 4 door 'daily drivers', and again, no one complains about the prices. So, high profit wins, but for how long?

 

Pickup trucks are generally sold with hefty incentives or discounts. Plus, 72-month loans make them more "affordable" to many buyers.

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20 minutes ago, grbeck said:

 

Pickup trucks are generally sold with hefty incentives or discounts. Plus, 72-month loans make them more "affordable" to many buyers.

 

I received $6K in rebates and another $4K in "discounts" on my 2018 XLT.

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I, too, mourn the passing of the sedan.  Though as a consumer of no fewer than 6 Ford SUV/CUV's, I know I bear some responsibility for the demise of the market.  However, exactly zero (none, nada, never, nope, huh-uh) of my vehicles has ever gone off-road (though, in my defense, I think I did deliberately drive in the snow to play with the 4WD system a couple of times and have driven on dirt roads 3 or 4 times).   Now, tired of the "car of stilts" look, the poor dynamics, and unnecessary bulk, I find myself yearning for a car again.  And now they're gone. A pity.  

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On 3/3/2020 at 1:52 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

and actually fits same length items into it slightly easier due to its configuration. 

 

 

 

Haven't tried it in our escape, but you get 10 foot PVC pipe in it? Fits easy in my fusion. 

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21 hours ago, BoomerSooner said:

I, too, mourn the passing of the sedan.  Though as a consumer of no fewer than 6 Ford SUV/CUV's, I know I bear some responsibility for the demise of the market.  However, exactly zero (none, nada, never, nope, huh-uh) of my vehicles has ever gone off-road (though, in my defense, I think I did deliberately drive in the snow to play with the 4WD system a couple of times and have driven on dirt roads 3 or 4 times).   Now, tired of the "car of stilts" look, the poor dynamics, and unnecessary bulk, I find myself yearning for a car again.  And now they're gone. A pity.  

 

  Handling is the largest difference. I admit, I have not driven an edge ST, but I did get a "base" Edge as loaner 

and it handles like crap compared to my "base" 15 fusion that I had (fusion did have AWD, so wasn't an S, but

certainly not a Sport either with tires that retailed for $87 each). 

 

  Maybe the mach E will come close, but which current Ford SUV comes close to this?  Only mods were sway bars and tires, 

peaked @ 1.05 G's (not on that lap). 

http://luxjo.supermotors.net/FUSION SPORT/IMG_1946a.jpg

 

  This was a beginner thing, only second time ever on a track. Did have bunch of younger

oriental kids (all in hondas and subies) hovering around my car @ the end of the day, trying to

figure out what it was. That was pretty funny since I was the "old" guy with the stock looking Fusion. 

 

http://luxjo.supermotors.net/FUSION SPORT/HLT/00186.mp4

(when I click link, I need to click on dropdown and download, or it won't play. 

YMMV)...........

 

 Many might say that I don't really need that, yet I see these SUv's hauling down the highway every day @ 90 MPH. 

I can switch lanes at that speed for accident avoidance about as fast as I have the stones to. SUV's, no chance in hell. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

    

Edited by OX1
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20 minutes ago, OX1 said:

 

  Handling is the largest difference. I admit, I have not driven an edge ST, but I did get a "base" Edge as loaner 

and it handles like crap compared to my "base" 15 fusion that I had (fusion did have AWD, so wasn't an S, but

certainly not a Sport either with tires that retailed for $87 each)


Sounds like a physics problem. Can you make a SUV/Truck/Crossover that handles as well as a cheap car? Perhaps, but it's going to cost a lot of money and take some work.

A budget crossover will simply never handle as well as a budget car for a similar price. When you consider that crossovers already cost more than cars, that creates a dilemma for low-cost shoppers:

1) Pay more for an inferior/undesirable vehicle

2) Pay even more to get an upgraded sporty version that does handle acceptably

3) Leave the Ford family and find a car elsewhere

 

FYI this post isn't to debate the merits of fords decision, just discussing the consequences for buyers.

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All true but most consumers don’t care about that type of handling and don’t see a difference.  What they do experience every day is easier ingress and egress and better cargo capacity with almost no penalty in fuel consumption.

 

And yes the Edge sport and ST handle a lot better than the other versions.  But still not a sedan with a low CG.

 

It really just comes down to personal preference on the pros and cons of each one.

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4 minutes ago, akirby said:

All true but most consumers don’t care about that type of handling and don’t see a difference.  

 

  But they drive at the highway speeds where they do need it in an emergency. These things feel safe

going straight @ 75-85, but NJ drivers don't give you the opportunity to leave space between you and the

car in front of you. 

 

  If a car fits, car after car after car will squeeze in. You can drive @ 55 in slow lane, then

you will probably have some space in front of you, but IMO you are more dangerous than the guy doing 90.    

(since traffic is flowing @ 80).

 

  Anyway, I will miss being able to buy a car from Ford that drives and handles as well as this Sport does

(it's a killer sleeper with as mentioned basically stock fusion looks).  Kia is the only one that is close for the

money, but KIA!! UGH!!!  (yes, I know they are not bad cars these days) 

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58 minutes ago, OX1 said:

 

  But they drive at the highway speeds where they do need it in an emergency. These things feel safe

going straight @ 75-85, but NJ drivers don't give you the opportunity to leave space between you and the

car in front of you. 

 

  If a car fits, car after car after car will squeeze in. You can drive @ 55 in slow lane, then

you will probably have some space in front of you, but IMO you are more dangerous than the guy doing 90.    

(since traffic is flowing @ 80).

 

  Anyway, I will miss being able to buy a car from Ford that drives and handles as well as this Sport does

(it's a killer sleeper with as mentioned basically stock fusion looks).  Kia is the only one that is close for the

money, but KIA!! UGH!!!  (yes, I know they are not bad cars these days) 


I’ve driven in NJ - not any worse than Atlanta.  I agree with the theory but in practice there may not be room or time to swerve and it’s usually safer to just hit something head on than to risk a rollover or hitting something on the shoulder.

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2 hours ago, OX1 said:

 

  But they drive at the highway speeds where they do need it in an emergency. These things feel safe

going straight @ 75-85, but NJ drivers don't give you the opportunity to leave space between you and the

car in front of you. 

 

  If a car fits, car after car after car will squeeze in. You can drive @ 55 in slow lane, then

you will probably have some space in front of you, but IMO you are more dangerous than the guy doing 90.    

(since traffic is flowing @ 80).

 

  Anyway, I will miss being able to buy a car from Ford that drives and handles as well as this Sport does

(it's a killer sleeper with as mentioned basically stock fusion looks).  Kia is the only one that is close for the

money, but KIA!! UGH!!!  (yes, I know they are not bad cars these days) 

What's your family situation?

Even if you have 2  kids... is it REALLY that hard to flip the seats forward?  And if you don't regularly take 2+ passengers, I don't see why you wouldn't want a Mustang! 

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20 hours ago, probowler said:

What's your family situation?

Even if you have 2  kids... is it REALLY that hard to flip the seats forward?  And if you don't regularly take 2+ passengers, I don't see why you wouldn't want a Mustang! 

 

  Not sure what you are asking? I have a mustang, doesn't have AWD. 

AWD is killer out of the hole even in the rain, I don't even bother driving a 600 HP

RWD in the rain (let alone snow).....

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