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Land Rover - No More 4.4 V8 Diesel


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So I read that Land Rover is phasing out the Ford supplied 4.4 V8 turbodiesel in Range Rover 

and replacing it with a  Hybrid 3.0 I-6 turbodiesel. Clearly, a move to improve fuel efficiency

and lower exhaust emissions but I wonder if this now opens the door to Ford to use this

Premium V8 Diesel in its larger SUVs and F150 truck.....

 

Yes, covid-19 has thrown the brakes on everything at the moment but after the crisis passes,

I wonder if Ford will take a chance on the Lion V8......

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10 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

I thought the Lion had other issues that kept Ford from using it.

From Wikipedia:

"While in development, the 4.4 TD was rumored to be for use in the Ford F-150, Ford Expedition, and as an entry level diesel option for the Super Duty. No such option ever became available with Ford citing the reason as being a low demand for a vehicle with a $6000–$8000 premium over its gasoline models."

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Nissan recently tried this strategy with a nice 5.0L V8 turbodiesel in their non-HD Titan pickup, they gave up pretty quickly after low sales. Turns out most buyers who will pay the premium for a V8 diesel will want a full HD, even if it's just for a daily driver/commuter truck. Will be interesting to see how many Tahoes and Surburbans will be sold with the I6 diesel. 

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3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

So if Ford doesn't have a use for the 4.4 Lion, then that means it's finished and consigned to history.

 

That's obvious. There is no future for Lion in Europe because the EU regs are now targeting large displacement diesels so it's unlikely that 4.4 (or 3.0 V6 for that matter) will be able to meet future CO2 emission goals without hybrid assist. This is precisely the reason why the German Big 3 have replaced (or about to replace) their V8 diesel with either I6 or V6 diesel with varying degree of electric assist. And same reason why Tata decided to stop using the Lion V8.

 

And without Europe, there is not enough volume to make any sort of investment to continue development of any diesel engines. Particularly one that required hybrid assist to pass CO2 test. 

 

BTW, the 4.4 V8 is not certified for EPA or CARB emission so even without investing in hybrid, it is still a very expensive process to make it available in the US just as is. Tata never paid to get the 4.4 certified for sale in the US so Ford didn't bother. Tata only paid to get the 3.0 V6 here and this is why the 3.0 V6 is in F-150. And given how few 3.0 diesel Ford has sold, I doubt they even need to do any sort of financial analysis to know the best thing to do with 4.4 Lion is to shut it down and mothball the tooling. 

Edited by bzcat
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6 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Or punch it out to 5.0L and put it in F250....:stirpot:

 

Ford will have to make it work with the HD transmission... and get it CARB and EPA certified. Emission is easier to pass for GVWR over 8,500 lbs but still cost money.

 

The real pay off is if they can manage to fit it into E-series with the right transmission. A diesel E-series will print money like no other.

Edited by bzcat
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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Ford will have to make it work with the HD transmission... and get it CARB and EPA certified. Emission is easier to pass for GVWR over 8,500 lbs but still cost money.

 

The real pay off is if they can manage to fit it into E-series with the right transmission. A diesel E-series will print money like no other.

 

5.0L Lion diesel in E-Series WOULD be a out of the park home-run for sure. I would think a 6 speed Torqueshift would work with it with no issues.

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21 hours ago, bzcat said:

That's obvious. There is no future for Lion in Europe because the EU regs are now targeting large displacement diesels so it's unlikely that 4.4 (or 3.0 V6 for that matter) will be able to meet future CO2 emission goals without hybrid assist. This is precisely the reason why the German Big 3 have replaced (or about to replace) their V8 diesel with either I6 or V6 diesel with varying degree of electric assist. And same reason why Tata decided to stop using the Lion V8.

 

And without Europe, there is not enough volume to make any sort of investment to continue development of any diesel engines. Particularly one that required hybrid assist to pass CO2 test. 

 

BTW, the 4.4 V8 is not certified for EPA or CARB emission so even without investing in hybrid, it is still a very expensive process to make it available in the US just as is. Tata never paid to get the 4.4 certified for sale in the US so Ford didn't bother. Tata only paid to get the 3.0 V6 here and this is why the 3.0 V6 is in F-150. And given how few 3.0 diesel Ford has sold, I doubt they even need to do any sort of financial analysis to know the best thing to do with 4.4 Lion is to shut it down and mothball the tooling. 

I find it amusing that Ford developed a 3.0 V6 diesel F150, then doesn't bother to advertise it 

so no wonder the take rate is dreadful....

 

and I get why the 4.4 V8 lion is toast, 320 Up and 516 lb ft is not all that flash when some 

3.0 six cylinder diesels can now get close to 300 up and 500 lb ft with increased boost.

heck, Ford has a 2.0 panther that makes 217 Up and 320 lb ft.

 

if Ford could put the 4.4 lion into E E dries, that would be a major coup as no one else

is really covering Heavier diesel vans properly.

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4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I find it amusing that Ford developed a 3.0 V6 diesel F150, then doesn't bother to advertise it 

so no wonder the take rate is dreadful....

To be fair, Ford rarely advertises any of its F-Series powertrains. And really, they don't need to do so--the people who care about them already know which powertrain they want, and the rest either buy what's in the truck they liked or the one that'll get the job done. 
 

Diesels just don't make any sense in half-ton trucks, IMHO. They're very heavy relative to gassers, which takes away from the truck's payload, and they don't really give you any advantages over the available gassers when it comes to the occasional towing that half-tons normally see (if they see any at all), plus they bring higher maintenance costs on top of their higher acquisition cost. Really, I think that contributes a lot more to the low take rate than any lack of awareness.

 

To be brutally blunt about it, I don't know why they bothered with the 3.0 PSD in the F-150, and I'm guessing that there are some folks in the Glass House who are wondering the same thing...

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28 minutes ago, SoonerLS said:

To be fair, Ford rarely advertises any of its F-Series powertrains. And really, they don't need to do so--the people who care about them already know which powertrain they want, and the rest either buy what's in the truck they liked or the one that'll get the job done. 
 

Diesels just don't make any sense in half-ton trucks, IMHO. They're very heavy relative to gassers, which takes away from the truck's payload, and they don't really give you any advantages over the available gassers when it comes to the occasional towing that half-tons normally see (if they see any at all), plus they bring higher maintenance costs on top of their higher acquisition cost. Really, I think that contributes a lot more to the low take rate than any lack of awareness.

 

To be brutally blunt about it, I don't know why they bothered with the 3.0 PSD in the F-150, and I'm guessing that there are some folks in the Glass House who are wondering the same thing...


Is it a better fit in the Transit or does it have the same issues?

 

I’m sure they were concerned about Losing sales to a Ram eco diesel.

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1 hour ago, SoonerLS said:

To be fair, Ford rarely advertises any of its F-Series powertrains. And really, they don't need to do so--the people who care about them already know which powertrain they want, and the rest either buy what's in the truck they liked or the one that'll get the job done. 
 

Diesels just don't make any sense in half-ton trucks, IMHO. They're very heavy relative to gassers, which takes away from the truck's payload, and they don't really give you any advantages over the available gassers when it comes to the occasional towing that half-tons normally see (if they see any at all), plus they bring higher maintenance costs on top of their higher acquisition cost. Really, I think that contributes a lot more to the low take rate than any lack of awareness.

 

To be brutally blunt about it, I don't know why they bothered with the 3.0 PSD in the F-150, and I'm guessing that there are some folks in the Glass House who are wondering the same thing...

The 3.0 PSD is close to the weight of the 2.7/3.0 EB so it's not like it's massively heavy.

A diesel only makes sense to folks that drive lots of miles with a part load like say,

5,000 to 7,000 lbs , enough to really muck up the gasoline fuel economy and give

the diesel a 30% advantage.

 

Buteven then, if a shrews buyer chooses a V8 over the Ecoboost V6s, that diesel 

economy advantage may not becas great, and then there's the higher maintenance.

 

I'm thinking E Series as a hail Mary for the 4.4 V8 but not surprised if Ford just cans it.

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5 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

 

 

To be brutally blunt about it, I don't know why they bothered with the 3.0 PSD in the F-150, and I'm guessing that there are some folks in the Glass House who are wondering the same thing...

 

 

Ford put the 3.0 lion in F-150 because Tata paid Ford to get it EPA and CARB certified. So it was available for Ford to use for very little money. It didn't need to sell a lot to break even. 

 

And from a strategic standpoint, if you can offer a product with very little investment to blunt the competitors' advantage, you do it. Having a diesel option gives would be Ram or Chevy 1500 diesel buyer another reason to stick with Ford. 

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

 

 

Ford put the 3.0 lion in F-150 because Tata paid Ford to get it EPA and CARB certified. So it was available for Ford to use for very little money. It didn't need to sell a lot to break even. 

 

And from a strategic standpoint, if you can offer a product with very little investment to blunt the competitors' advantage, you do it. Having a diesel option gives would be Ram or Chevy 1500 diesel buyer another reason to stick with Ford. 

I'd love to know how much FCA spent on redesigning the 3.0 Ecodiesel to make it more reliable.

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9 hours ago, akirby said:


Is it a better fit in the Transit or does it have the same issues?

 

I’m sure they were concerned about Losing sales to a Ram eco diesel.

Transits are, I think, mostly commercial vehicles, which generally have a different duty cycle, so it probably makes a lot more sense in them (and the E-Series, which are completely commercial). I'm not sure if it's packaging constraints or a different rating method, but the  EB35 in the Transit has output more like the the F-150's EB27; if they could keep more of the 3.0 PSD's performance, it would seem to me to be a no-brainer to add it to the lineup. (Obviously, there's something that's keeping them out of the Transit.)

 

I don't know what the Ecodiesel take rate is, but it can't be much. Maybe they changed their output, but when Ecodiesel was introduced, they were only slated to get a max of 75K engines per year, split between Ram and Jeep. That's table scraps in the F-Series' segment.

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4 hours ago, bzcat said:

Ford put the 3.0 lion in F-150 because Tata paid Ford to get it EPA and CARB certified. So it was available for Ford to use for very little money. It didn't need to sell a lot to break even. 

Yeah, I didn't realize that Tata paid for the big-ticket charges. That does make it make more sense.

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9 minutes ago, Deanh said:

anyone know why Ford STILL isn't making diesel F-150s...I heard it was EPA related, but that passed a while ago...still have couple of orders from December...Material Hold....weird...

 

Aren't those built in the UK?  I'd guess C-19 and Brexit.

 

 

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I completely forgot about the Diesel F-150, I remember hearing SOMETHING about it maybe around 2018?

As someone else mentioned, an I'm going to reiterate... Ford has an annoying habbit of offering things and never advertising them, and then being surprised when they don't sell.  But in this case, I also agree with those who just don't see a big demand for these things... If you need the diesel engine, you probably also need the HD platform.  It is cool that they offered it though, even if it wasn't a huge seller.

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