fuzzymoomoo Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, probowler said: Bad choice of words, i meant is construction finished on it? The last I heard ford was building a new factory in Mexico then they cancelled it when Trump called them out on it. Oh it was cancelled before Trump ever took office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Donaldo said: I think Bronco & Bronco Sport will have a lot more potential to create conquest buyers for Ford than the Mach-E. It's a market that Ford abandoned decades ago, and still sells a lot of off-road oriented SUVs. Consider this, all the vehicles you mentioned are replacement products for Hermosillo and Cuautitlan, San Louis Potosi was cancelled, it's clear that Ford is limiting total US sales to a maximum of 2.5 million. They are as reliant as ever on F Series carrying the can for Jim Hackett's mobility and electrification plans...,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02MustangGT Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Edited April 10, 2020 by 02MustangGT Double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02MustangGT Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Stuff that I don't feel comfortable posting about publicly. Also the governor of Michigan just extended and enhanced the lockdown order until the end of May, and essentially turned the state into a police state. So you are saying that Ford was forced to “care” about their factory employees? Or you didn’t see the “stay at home” orders being extended? Just trying to understand, from your perspective 2 weeks ago, you eluded to the fact that you would be back at the factory because Ford doesn’t care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donaldo Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Consider this, all the vehicles you mentioned are replacement products for Hermosillo and Cuautitlan, San Louis Potosi was cancelled, it's clear that Ford is limiting total US sales to a maximum of 2.5 million. They are as reliant as ever on F Series carrying the can for Jim Hackett's mobility and electrification plans...,. I can see focusing on vehicles with the highest profit margins. I understand the Porsche 911 had the highest profitability per car last year. It accounts for almost 30% of Porsche's profits, even though it is only 11% of sales. It's not the most expensive or exclusive sports car. Same thing with premium American made SUVs like the BMW X5 and Mercedes GLE, they punch above their class and put money in the bank. Maybe the higher end F-150s like Raptors will be the Porsches of pickup trucks? I'm thinking high customer satisfaction+low discounts= good profits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 the sport truck segment can disappear just as fast as it appeared...sport trucks are so 30 years ago...ford needs product that "connects" and at this point it does not....its all stickers and product that is dam expensive to mod.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 38 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Stuff that I don't feel comfortable posting about publicly. Also the governor of Michigan just extended and enhanced the lockdown order until the end of May, and essentially turned the state into a police state. She only extended it until the end of April. She wanted to extend it 70 days but the legislature told her no. She’s making this way to political and is probably going to cost Peters his seat this Fall if she’s not careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Donaldo said: I can see focusing on vehicles with the highest profit margins. I understand the Porsche 911 had the highest profitability per car last year. It accounts for almost 30% of Porsche's profits, even though it is only 11% of sales. It's not the most expensive or exclusive sports car. Same thing with premium American made SUVs like the BMW X5 and Mercedes GLE, they punch above their class and put money in the bank. Maybe the higher end F-150s like Raptors will be the Porsches of pickup trucks? I'm thinking high customer satisfaction+low discounts= good profits. Correct and with that, we can also see that Ford is less inclined to chase massive sales in compact segments like RAV4 and Equinox. Everywhere you look, Ford has entry models but the higher trims and options is money to Ford, make them desirable and buyers react. 10 minutes ago, snooter said: the sport truck segment can disappear just as fast as it appeared...sport trucks are so 30 years ago...ford needs product that "connects" and at this point it does not....its all stickers and product that is dam expensive to mod.... The money to develop is already spent, they are ridiculous high profit that rich buyers can afford, that means there's a lot of room to move on price when times are tight. I'm sure sports trucks will stay as long as buyers want them. Ford doesn't give a fig about modifiers, never have and never will. Edited April 10, 2020 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, Donaldo said: I can see focusing on vehicles with the highest profit margins. I understand the Porsche 911 had the highest profitability per car last year. It accounts for almost 30% of Porsche's profits, even though it is only 11% of sales. It's not the most expensive or exclusive sports car. Same thing with premium American made SUVs like the BMW X5 and Mercedes GLE, they punch above their class and put money in the bank. Maybe the higher end F-150s like Raptors will be the Porsches of pickup trucks? I'm thinking high customer satisfaction+low discounts= good profits. Ford is a volume manufacturer not a boutique car company like Porsche or Tesla. They can't keep chasing margin and ignore volume because they have high fixed costs. Yes, you can in theory charge higher price for each unit if you only plan to sell 100,000 instead of 150,000 but that assumes there is no nature demand for 150,000 units (so you have to discount and provide incentive to move the other 50,000 units). However, that ignores the fact that the cost of running the factory to produce 100,000 and 150,000 units are basically the same. So by not producing that extra 50,000 units, Ford just destroyed its profitability. Additionally, to justify higher prices, you need to keep products fresh. What have we seen Ford do instead? Just the opposite! They kept the Escape past the sell-by date and the new one is getting panned for having cheap interior. In the case of compact CUV, there is ample evidence that natural demand for Ford Escape is likely higher than Ford is willing to sell. There is also plenty of evidence that consumers are willing to pay a premium for compact CUV that delivers the goods but Ford decided to cut cost instead. It's a weird situation they are in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 Little harsh dont you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, snooter said: Little harsh dont you think? The truth often is, no offence intended but Ford regularly defers heavily modified Mustang/extreme off road trucks/SUVs to the aftermarket. 1 hour ago, bzcat said: Ford is a volume manufacturer not a boutique car company like Porsche or Tesla. They can't keep chasing margin and ignore volume because they have high fixed costs. Yes, you can in theory charge higher price for each unit if you only plan to sell 100,000 instead of 150,000 but that assumes there is no nature demand for 150,000 units (so you have to discount and provide incentive to move the other 50,000 units). However, that ignores the fact that the cost of running the factory to produce 100,000 and 150,000 units are basically the same. So by not producing that extra 50,000 units, Ford just destroyed its profitability. Additionally, to justify higher prices, you need to keep products fresh. What have we seen Ford do instead? Just the opposite! They kept the Escape past the sell-by date and the new one is getting panned for having cheap interior. In the case of compact CUV, there is ample evidence that natural demand for Ford Escape is likely higher than Ford is willing to sell. There is also plenty of evidence that consumers are willing to pay a premium for compact CUV that delivers the goods but Ford decided to cut cost instead. It's a weird situation they are in. Ford is definitely leaving a lot of money and sales on the table, the problem is much deeper than higher ATPs, it's this attitude of actively resisting products and trims that have low profit returns. All to keep JH's 10% returns. Mulally taught Ford that a lot of the costs that were once assumed to be fixed are in fact variable and that feeding the multitudes with 40,000/mth Escape might not serve their purposes as much as say, split across two vehicles with higher asking price and lower Mexican input costs. It's more about benchmarking Ford against itself than others and something that will haunt them if or when the market changes abruptly like now. Jim Hackett has proven to me how dreadful he is at contingency planning, he has heavily leveraged Ford on "the future" while running down the present. Edited April 10, 2020 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 1 hour ago, bzcat said: In the case of compact CUV, there is ample evidence that natural demand for Ford Escape is likely higher than Ford is willing to sell. There is also plenty of evidence that consumers are willing to pay a premium for compact CUV that delivers the goods but Ford decided to cut cost instead. It's a weird situation they are in. Isn't that the point of the Bronco Sport? Charge more for a vehicle that should have higher demand and transaction pricing then the Escape? Maybe they are trying wring the Escape pricing as much as possible til the Sport comes along and then they will lower pricing to a point via incentives to move them? They seem to have some sort of issue with the Escape's costs-They did some serious decontenting on the last gen at the end of its run, but oddly a 2017 SE has nearly everything a 2013 Escape Ti has equipment wise and in some cases is better equipped (Power passenger seat on the SE vs Ti) then it was. Not sure what is going on there with Ford...seems like they seriously dropped the ball some place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Isn't that the point of the Bronco Sport? Charge more for a vehicle that should have higher demand and transaction pricing then the Escape? Maybe they are trying wring the Escape pricing as much as possible til the Sport comes along and then they will lower pricing to a point via incentives to move them? They seem to have some sort of issue with the Escape's costs-They did some serious decontenting on the last gen at the end of its run, but oddly a 2017 SE has nearly everything a 2013 Escape Ti has equipment wise and in some cases is better equipped (Power passenger seat on the SE vs Ti) then it was. Not sure what is going on there with Ford...seems like they seriously dropped the ball some place. Some mistakes with Escape pricing and trim content could be corrected with an update like Explorer, I think Ford is being a bit take it or leave it with buyers, there's a lot of money being left on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Also the governor of Michigan just extended and enhanced the lockdown order until the end of May, and essentially turned the state into a police state. We've been shut down since the 16th and a couple things have happened in the past week or two clamp down on things even more. It's not a police state-its looking out for everyone's best interests. We have an issue the next town over from me with a certain religious sect that runs it and doesn't follow the social distancing rules or other things implemented-and they have the most numbers in the entire county and are causing the communities next to it to be the 1st or second/3rd highest in their respective counties. My town is has the highest amount of cases in my county because of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: It's not a police state-its looking out for everyone's best interests. Local municipalities around me (one of which still has ZERO confirmed COVID-19 cases, most of which are in single digits) are literally sitting in parking lots and waiting to write people tickets. That screams police state to me. A friend of mine who lives around the corner from me got harassed by local police for mowing his lawn. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Local municipalities around me (one of which still has ZERO confirmed COVID-19 cases, most of which are in single digits) are literally sitting in parking lots and waiting to write people tickets. That screams police state to me. A friend of mine who lives around the corner from me got harassed by local police for mowing his lawn. That sounds like bored cops to me...we have a fairly significant population (about 1.5 Million between the two counties I live near) and I haven't seen that yet...the closed the parks the other day finally here. I've been out a couple times and there are still a decent amount of people out and about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader 10 Posted April 10, 2020 Author Share Posted April 10, 2020 On 4/8/2020 at 6:47 AM, rperez817 said: Yes sir snooter. Ford buyers tend to be loyalists who already own a Ford vehicle. This is a good thing in that it's easier to sell to an existing customer than to get a conquest customer. While the last thing Ford needs right now is growth, there is the long term concern that the number of Ford loyalists is shrinking. And as you correctly said, more erosion of Ford's market share is likely. Maybe Ford's new BEV products like Mustang Mach-E will finally change that. Remains to be seen. It will be years before any BEV products will reverse the market share erosion, especially given their premium pricing. What Ford needs to help with market share is a vehicle that will sell 100,000 or more units/year - like a C2 based Fusion sedan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 10, 2020 Share Posted April 10, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, silvrsvt said: That sounds like bored cops to me...we have a fairly significant population (about 1.5 Million between the two counties I live near) and I haven't seen that yet...the closed the parks the other day finally here. I've been out a couple times and there are still a decent amount of people out and about. There's a video circulating social media right now of a guy being forcibly removed from a train in Philadelphia because he didn't want to wear a mask. That doesn't sound like bored cops to me. Edited April 10, 2020 by fuzzymoomoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: There's a video circulating social media right now of a guy being forcibly removed from a train in Philadelphia because he didn't want to wear a mask. That doesn't sound like bored cops to me. In my country, they closed down a state border,r rat runners now driving around blockades are being hit with $13,000 fine. People not permitted to go camping or use holiday homes, one government minister caught and ultimately forced to resign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 They should have canned the edge....makes even less sense to keep with the soon arrival of the wanna be heep...may be use the savings to upgrade interiors on f series and escape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, snooter said: They should have canned the edge....makes even less sense to keep with the soon arrival of the wanna be heep...may be use the savings to upgrade interiors on f series and escape Bronco may be a disappointment to you but that doesn't mean it's not a capable off roader that does most things expected of it, short of extreme off roading. The money has already been spent developing NG Edge, there are no savings to be had as cancelling it now would be an even greater loss to Ford. Edge will have softer body styling than Bronco and complement sales, not compete. All part of Ford's plan to have three sales channels: Bronco Sport + Escape + Corsair = 100k + 200k + 30k annual sales in first full 12 months Bronco + Edge + Nautilus = 50k + 180k + 30k annual sales in first full 12 months Edited April 11, 2020 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLTEcoBoost Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 You folks STILL don't get it. The reason for the decline in Escape sales is the nasty, ratty 3-cylinder. A VERY poor value. And it's going in the Bronco Sport too? They're clearly asleep at the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probowler Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 On 4/9/2020 at 10:12 PM, silvrsvt said: It's not a police state-its looking out for everyone's best interests. Said every police state, ever. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLTEcoBoost Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 (edited) And look at Fusion sales. In the Top 20 yet again. Yes, a ton are fleet these days, but they're EVERYWHERE. Dumbest decision ever to discontinue this model (and another feather in the cap for sending Jimbo - take Billy Boy April 2 (Reuters) - The following are the 20 top-selling vehicles in the United States in Q1 2020, as reported by automakers and ranked by total units. Top 20 selling vehicles in the United States in Q1 2020: RANK VEHICLE Q1 2020 Q1 2019 PCT CHNG 1 Ford F-Series P/U 186,562 214,611 -13.1 2 Chevy Silverado-C/K P/U 144,734 114,313 +26.6 3 Ram P/U 128,805 120,026 +7.3 4 Toyota RAV4 97,631 83,820 +16.5 5 Toyota Camry 77,188 81,684 -5.5 6 Chevrolet Equinox 73,453 88,500 -17.0 7 Honda CR-V 71,186 87,280 -18.4 8 Toyota Corolla 69,214 78,608 -12.0 9 Honda Civic 63,944 78,185 -18.2 10 Nissan Rogue 59,716 93,814 -36.3 11 Ford Explorer 56,310 61,922 -9.1 12 Toyota Tacoma 53,636 58,183 -7.8 13 GMC Sierra P/U 53,009 40,546 +30.7 14 Jeep Grand Cherokee 50,083 57,749 -13.3 15 Ford Escape 48,117 60,702 -20.7 16 Toyota Highlander 47,890 52,621 -9.0 17 Nissan Altima 47,347 51,480 -8.0 18 Honda Accord 47,125 64,411 -26.8 19 Jeep Wrangler 39,668 49,978 -20.6 20 Ford Fusion 36,937 41,683 -11.4 with you - off a cliff). Refresh it lightly (but more than for '19) for '22, and a full (NOT new platform) redo for '24. Want 250K in sales for a couple (maybe more) years on top of the Fusion's already healthy sales? Bring the wagon (duh!) and call it Country Squire. Offer it in base (S) trims and above and also a vinyl wood sided option on SE and above. And price it from $27-ish to $40-ish. AWD an option. At the very least, it'll be an instant remake of many movie and sitcom classics. I'd buy one, for sure. So would my sister and her friends and their friends. OK, so the appeal might be to those of us 50+, but we have the money. Edited April 11, 2020 by CLTEcoBoost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probowler Posted April 11, 2020 Share Posted April 11, 2020 I still find the Fusion to be an attractive car, a good refresh would do wonders for that thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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