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Volkswagen board formally okays Ford alliance projects


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16 hours ago, AGR said:

The Transporter is not the equivalent of the Transit, it is approximately the same size as the Transit Custom(and thus not a one ton van). And there is a disconnect between the Ford slide and the article that I linked. The article described an all-new Transporter on a VW platform. Maybe the Crafter name is going away in favor of a Transporter "Max"(?) to take advantage of the long lived iconic model name.

 

Transporter is the name for commercial van. VW sells several models based on that platform: Transporter, Caravelle, Multivan, and California.

 

Looks like Transit Custom based van/truck will only replace Transporter. Caravelle, Multivan, and California will move on to MQB platform. At least that's what the Ford slides say if taken at face value. 

 

Also since Transit Custom and Transit are basically the same van just different GVWR and length, it's not that important which one will replace Transporter. It's just going to be a 3rd body style that Ford will produce on this platform. In Europe, you can buy FWD Transit with transverse engine as well as a Transit Custom LWB that are about the same size - only difference is Transit has higher weight rating.

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17 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

 

Anyone find it weird that odd that they use the Transit Courier is one picture and then the Transit Connect in another?

 

Also, they specifically show only the 1 ton "cargo van" as being shared...but not the passenger versions....

 

hmm...

 

The Transit Courier and Connect mix up may or may not be intentional... hard to say. VW Caddy is the same size as Transit Connect and VW currently does not sell anything in the Transit Courier size. I doubt Ford will give up on the Courier size since it is important for Ford to be a full line van company. The combined PSA-FCA will have strong entry in that size too. 

 

The "cargo van" description is quite deliberate I think. It implies that Transporter will move to a Ford based product but not the more expensive passenger version Caravalle, Multivan and California. 

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Ford                    / VW                  / Peugeot      / Citroen      / Fiat                 / Opel             / Renuault / Daimler

Transit Courier / None               /  Bipper        /  Nemo        /Fiorino           / None            / None        / None

Transit Connect / Caddy          /  Partner       / Berlingo     /  Doblo           / Combo        / Kangoo     / Citan

Transit Custom / Transporter  / Expert        / Jumpy         / Talento         / Vivaro          / Trafic        / Vito (Metris)

Transit                / Crafter          / Boxer          / Jumper       / Ducato         / Movano        / Master      / Sprinter

 

 

Bipper, Nemo, Fiorino are identical B-vans produced by FCA and rebadged as Peugeot and Citroen.

Partner, Berlingo, Combo are identical C-vans produced by PSA for its 3 brands.

Kangoo and Citan are identical C-vans produced by Renault and rebadged as Mercedes.

Expert, Jumpy, and Vivaro are identical D-vans produced by PSA for its 3 brands.

Talento and Trafic are identical D-vans produced by Renault and rebadged as Fiat.

Boxer, Jumper, and Ducato are identical fullsize vans produced by FCA-PSA joint venture and rebadged (also as Ram Promaster)

Master and Movano are identical fullsize vans produced by Renault and rebadged as Opel (probably won't last no Opel is part of PSA).

 

Ford is currently the largest van seller in Europe but with GM selling out to PSA and now PSA and FCA merging, the van market in Europe is consolidating very fast in favor or PSA. So with Ford and VW now paired up, the van market in Europe is going to be divided into 2 big players and will probably force Renault and Daimler to join forces. 

1 Ford-VW

2 PSA

3 Renault-Daimler 

Edited by bzcat
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4 hours ago, bzcat said:

Ford                    / VW                  / Peugeot      / Citroen      / Fiat                 / Opel             / Renuault / Daimler

Transit Courier / None               /  Bipper        /  Nemo        /Fiorino           / None            / None        / None

Transit Connect / Caddy          /  Partner       / Berlingo     /  Doblo           / Combo        / Kangoo     / Citan

Transit Custom / Transporter  / Expert        / Jumpy         / Talento         / Vivaro          / Trafic        / Vito (Metris)

Transit                / Crafter          / Boxer          / Jumper       / Ducato         / Movano        / Master      / Sprinter

 

 

Bipper, Nemo, Fiorino are identical B-vans produced by FCA and rebadged as Peugeot and Citroen.

Partner, Berlingo, Combo are identical C-vans produced by PSA for its 3 brands.

Kangoo and Citan are identical C-vans produced by Renault and rebadged as Mercedes.

Expert, Jumpy, and Vivaro are identical D-vans produced by PSA for its 3 brands.

Talento and Trafic are identical D-vans produced by Renault and rebadged as Fiat.

Boxer, Jumper, and Ducato are identical fullsize vans produced by FCA-PSA joint venture and rebadged (also as Ram Promaster)

Master and Movano are identical fullsize vans produced by Renault and rebadged as Opel (probably won't last no Opel is part of PSA).

 

Ford is currently the largest van seller in Europe but with GM selling out to PSA and now PSA and FCA merging, the van market in Europe is consolidating very fast in favor or PSA. So with Ford and VW now paired up, the van market in Europe is going to be divided into 2 big players and will probably force Renault and Daimler to join forces. 

1 Ford-VW

2 PSA

3 Renault-Daimler 

 

Remember PSA also supplies vans to Toyota (though I wonder PSA-FCA will kick them to the curb now. Why have the extra competition?)

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You can see by the fact that there is so much sharing of the same van between different manufacturers that vans in Europe are fast becoming a commodity.  This probably means profits are small and will continue to diminish, making consolidations even more likely.  Not a good market to be in. 

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16 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

You can see by the fact that there is so much sharing of the same van between different manufacturers that vans in Europe are fast becoming a commodity.  This probably means profits are small and will continue to diminish, making consolidations even more likely.  Not a good market to be in. 

 

I think you are drawing the wrong conclusion. Just like in the US, profits for vans are big but only if you have the scale to be in the top 2 or 3 players. Ford is the top player but PSA is making a concerted effort to overtake Ford.

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21 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Transporter is the name for commercial van. VW sells several models based on that platform: Transporter, Caravelle, Multivan, and California.

 

Looks like Transit Custom based van/truck will only replace Transporter. Caravelle, Multivan, and California will move on to MQB platform. At least that's what the Ford slides say if taken at face value. 

 

Also since Transit Custom and Transit are basically the same van just different GVWR and length, it's not that important which one will replace Transporter. It's just going to be a 3rd body style that Ford will produce on this platform. In Europe, you can buy FWD Transit with transverse engine as well as a Transit Custom LWB that are about the same size - only difference is Transit has higher weight rating.

 

I'm well aware of the VW lineup. As a kid, VW was my favorite car company, they're still my 2nd favorite. The Caravelle and Multivan are passenger vans, the California is the camper. After VW split ways with van converter Westfalia Werke, they took the camper conversions in house.

VW is dropping the Sharan and Touran vans, the aforementioned trio will be it for VW passenger vans.

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23 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

That's a tough nut to crack. It probably wouldn't be such a problem if PSA didn't absorb Opel but since it did, taking on Fiat's van business would really put them over the top. GM's withdraw from Europe has up ended the competitive landscape and this is just another example. I think PSA will probably volunteer to withdraw Opel/Vauxhall from the van market except perhaps in UK to limit its market share. And EU regulators may also insist PSA continue to supply vans to Toyota as long as Toyota wants to be in that business. 

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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

That's a tough nut to crack. It probably wouldn't be such a problem if PSA didn't absorb Opel but since it did, taking on Fiat's van business would really put them over the top. GM's withdraw from Europe has up ended the competitive landscape and this is just another example. I think PSA will probably volunteer to withdraw Opel/Vauxhall from the van market except perhaps in UK to limit its market share. And EU regulators may also insist PSA continue to supply vans to Toyota as long as Toyota wants to be in that business. 

Add to that Ford and VW about to start making music together, lots of competition going away

I really don't know if the EU can resolve the the balance between competition and alliance.

You can't have socialism in business.

Edited by jpd80
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Sure, you can have socialism in business. That's what chicken tax is in the US - protection and corp wellfare for some but we are going off topic.

 

I think PSA is going to argue that the impending Ford-VW alliance makes their FCA acquisition not anti-competitive. That may or may not get a sympathetic ear. The fallback position is probably what I described... Getting Opel out of van business and propping up Toyota as a marginal sock puppet in the van business. The big unknown is whether Hyundai will make a big push to join the van market in Europe. They are the only non-luxury volume brand manufacturer in the EU that is not actively involved in the commercial van business.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, bzcat said:

The big unknown is whether Hyundai will make a big push to join the van market in Europe. They are the only non-luxury volume brand manufacturer in the EU that is not actively involved in the commercial van business.

 

Yes sir bzcat. Do you know if Hyundai has any plans to offer H-1 Starex through its official sales channels in Europe?

 

h1-tq-highlights-gallery-original-02.jpg

 

h1-tq-highlights-gallery-original-08.jpg

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Hyundai does sell H1 in some markets in Europe but not in a serious way. They are also not selling their large fullsize H350 vans which is kind of curious because it is assembled in Turkey by Karsan and was designed to compete with Euro fullsize vans. 

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On 6/11/2020 at 7:33 AM, Joe771476 said:

yeah, if I were VW, I would approve an eventual takeover of Ford too!  Yeah i know about the Ford family class B stock.

 

Yep, a merging of both companies is probably where this is going eventually before Ford slowly fades away and the Ford family never sees dividends again. With so many upstarts now going after the pickup market, the musical chairs will begin and everyone gabbing a partner before the music stops. VW would be cool with Audi and Porsche already in the stable.

 

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1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

With so many upstarts now going after the pickup market, the musical chairs will begin and everyone gabbing a partner before the music stops.

 

 

Going  after the pickup market and actually being successful are two different things. Witness the Japanese for the past 20-30 years. 

 

Its not like Ford doesn't have a BEV Pickup coming out in the next 24 months or less now. Ford will fight tooth and nail when it comes the Large Truck market and Vans, that is what they are best at. 

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3 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Going  after the pickup market and actually being successful are two different things. Witness the Japanese for the past 20-30 years. 

 

Its not like Ford doesn't have a BEV Pickup coming out in the next 24 months or less now. Ford will fight tooth and nail when it comes the Large Truck market and Vans, that is what they are best at. 

 

I agree with you, but also that segment is getting much more competitive every year. So Ford is going to need more than its "crown jewel" to survive in the future. Every segment is getting increasingly competitive and every auto company is.looking for a possible partner to survive. Add in the pandemic and it only gets harder. So I look for this Ford/VW alliance to become more over time. Both need each other going forward.

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2 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

I thought it was to be based on the smaller ID3?

 

Ford hasn't said anything about what kind of vehicles it will be building using MEB. But most likely it will be cheaper/smaller one more similar to ID.3 because Ford is going to sell Mach E (and other future Model E platform vehicles) in Europe. Basically, VW made Ford an offer it couldn't refuse... use MEB for likely money losing small EVs so it doesn't have to do it with its own Model E platform. 

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19 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

Ford hasn't said anything about what kind of vehicles it will be building using MEB. But most likely it will be cheaper/smaller one more similar to ID.3 because Ford is going to sell Mach E (and other future Model E platform vehicles) in Europe. Basically, VW made Ford an offer it couldn't refuse... use MEB for likely money losing small EVs so it doesn't have to do it with its own Model E platform. 

 

Thanks for the correction. I had the impression they were going for a cheaper-than-Mustang crossover, instead of taking the Model E platform now to plants in Europe.

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On 6/16/2020 at 9:20 AM, bzcat said:

Sure, you can have socialism in business. That's what chicken tax is in the US - protection and corp wellfare for some but we are going off topic.

 

I think PSA is going to argue that the impending Ford-VW alliance makes their FCA acquisition not anti-competitive. That may or may not get a sympathetic ear. The fallback position is probably what I described... Getting Opel out of van business and propping up Toyota as a marginal sock puppet in the van business. The big unknown is whether Hyundai will make a big push to join the van market in Europe. They are the only non-luxury volume brand manufacturer in the EU that is not actively involved in the commercial van business.

 

 

 

Just briefly, the chicken tax was never about socialism in business, it was to punish Europe for an unfair tax and actually reduced competition by excluding certain import vehicles which actually kept prices higher, the anthesis of the subject at hand.

Back on topic,

the EC still clings to the multi point competition model, so just demonstrate that brands have their own pricing freedom

  should be enough. All the commercial manufacturers have to do is demonstrate a degree of competition still exists.

 

Edited by jpd80
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2 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Just briefly, the chicken tax was never about socialism in business, it was to punish Europe and actually reduced competition.

 

Yes sir, LBJ originally put tariffs on European light trucks, brandy, potato starch, and dextrin as retaliation for tariffs West Germany and France put on American chicken. Volkswagen was hit particularly hard. VW Type 2 pickup truck sales in the U.S. declined dramatically because of the tariff.

Kombi_Pick_Up_A%C3%A7o.jpg

 

Ultimately, the tariffs on American chicken, and on European brandy, potato starch, and dextrin were removed. But the tariff on imported light trucks remained thanks to heavy lobbying by automakers who sell pickup trucks in the U.S., particularly GM and Ford. This tariff has become a good example of "socialism in business" as bzcat mentioned. It's currently one of the most severe market distorting policies in the automotive industry globally.

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Yes sir, LBJ originally put tariffs on European light trucks, brandy, potato starch, and dextrin as retaliation for tariffs West Germany and France put on American chicken. Volkswagen was hit particularly hard. VW Type 2 pickup truck sales in the U.S. declined dramatically because of the tariff.

Kombi_Pick_Up_A%C3%A7o.jpg

 

Ultimately, the tariffs on American chicken, and on European brandy, potato starch, and dextrin were removed. But the tariff on imported light trucks remained thanks to heavy lobbying by automakers who sell pickup trucks in the U.S., particularly GM and Ford. This tariff has become a good example of "socialism in business" as bzcat mentioned. It's currently one of the most severe market distorting policies in the automotive industry globally.

Socialism is meant to benefit the end user, the buyer but this does not by keeping prices higher.

the lobbying by manufacturers  to keep out competition is more protectionism and definitly

capitalism driven ( making a profit).

 

While you could argue that it protects US workers jobs, the main intent was to stop profit sapping 

competition import products.

Edited by jpd80
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4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Going  after the pickup market and actually being successful are two different things. Witness the Japanese for the past 20-30 years. 

 

Its not like Ford doesn't have a BEV Pickup coming out in the next 24 months or less now. Ford will fight tooth and nail when it comes the Large Truck market and Vans, that is what they are best at. 

 

This is a valid point. The thing is that Toyota could make a big dent in the market if they wanted to. They are in a good position to lay as much "cash on the hood" as it takes-but they appear (for whatever reasons) not interested.

Edited by CKNSLS
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6 hours ago, CKNSLS said:

 

This is a valid point. The thing is that Toyota could make a big dent in the market if they wanted to. They are in a good position to lay as much "cash on the hood" as it takes-but they appear (for whatever reasons) not interested.

Look at the shattered plans for Tundra and you'll realise why Toyota is not keen to repeat the exercise.

That old chunka turd Tacoma keeps rolling in 15k to 20k sales a month of happy customers, maybe

if Toyota widened and lengthened Tacoma to be an even bigger better truck, the sweet spot yes?

Edited by jpd80
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