jasonj80 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Footballfan said: Remember FRAP is the only Ford plant in their system that builds FWD and RWD cars on the same line. Also remember Flat Rock cant build anything with a tall roof. Oakville has issues working against it. It is in Canada and it is expensive to produce there, the property that it sits on is worth billions of dollars, and most importantly it doesn't have enough product to fill it. You need two full guaranteed shifts of production to make an plant profitable. You also have Unifor which isn't the most pleasurable/smartest group to deal with Jerry Dias who loves a camera and stirring the pot even more than Trump. Canada however has some very nice trade agreements around the world and could make multiple vehicles as both a main production site as well as secondary site for products that are made in the US but face steeper tariffs when they are exported and the Edge name and vehicle configuration is not going anywhere. This whole story came from a AutoForcast Solutions which ironically had its contract with Ford terminated because of cutbacks, like many other consultant companies Ford has severed ties with over the past 2 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 hour ago, jasonj80 said: Also remember Flat Rock cant build anything with a tall roof. Oakville has issues working against it. It is in Canada and it is expensive to produce there, the property that it sits on is worth billions of dollars, and most importantly it doesn't have enough product to fill it. You need two full guaranteed shifts of production to make an plant profitable. You also have Unifor which isn't the most pleasurable/smartest group to deal with Jerry Dias who loves a camera and stirring the pot even more than Trump. Canada however has some very nice trade agreements around the world and could make multiple vehicles as both a main production site as well as secondary site for products that are made in the US but face steeper tariffs when they are exported and the Edge name and vehicle configuration is not going anywhere. This whole story came from a AutoForcast Solutions which ironically had its contract with Ford terminated because of cutbacks, like many other consultant companies Ford has severed ties with over the past 2 months. We have two shifts man. We just lost our third shift in body and paint January 2020. Trim and chassis are ruining 8 hours at the moment. Body and Paint is 8-10 hours, pre-covid main plant was doing over 8 hours per shift on average and body 8-10. The Canadian dollar is low compared to the mighty greenback, if you’re basing this on Ontario and their electricity costs your argument has some merit. When the truck plant and ST Thomas assembly closed they were one shift operations and we knew they were in trouble. This is all contractual Sabre rattling, that is my belief. Oakville all of a sudden in trouble running 2 shifts?? Like I said they will use covid and the billions they will lose as a result in their contract position. I know the FOMOCO playbook all too well. Last ratification meeting in 2016 we heard the union leadership talk about the moving threat from Ford. Here we go again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 You’re right also we aren’t maxed out probably won’t be for awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 5 hours ago, Footballfan said: Remember FRAP is the only Ford plant in their system that builds FWD and RWD cars on the same line. Thats true but they’re limited to only sedans due to height restrictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 5 hours ago, Footballfan said: I know they float plant closings as a way to gain leverage. IMHO, FRAP was never in jeopardy unless they wanted to drop the Mustang altogether. It was though, and there was a plan ready to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 Seems like the old exit strategy lingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: Seems like the old exit strategy lingo What do you mean, the threatening to close FRAP? No that was on the table until literally the morning the TA was announced and there was a plan to relocate Mustang elsewhere in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oacnewbie Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 13 hours ago, PREMiERdrum said: Also remember that the CD6 iteration of the next Edge *was* scrapped. A new program entirely was started in the wake. Never heard anything about that, can you elaborate bit? How costly/time consuming is it to migrate from the CD4 to C2 platform? My understanding is Ford wants all of their plants on one of five platforms. The Edge/Naut still sits on CD4 so that will have to change, correct? My understanding was that the new Mustang was going to CD6 around 2025, along with a RWD Lincoln coupe to replace the Continental. What about this $900m going into Ohio for a "mystery product" coming 2023? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 20 minutes ago, oacnewbie said: Never heard anything about that, can you elaborate bit? How costly/time consuming is it to migrate from the CD4 to C2 platform? My understanding is Ford wants all of their plants on one of five platforms. The Edge/Naut still sits on CD4 so that will have to change, correct? My understanding was that the new Mustang was going to CD6 around 2025, along with a RWD Lincoln coupe to replace the Continental. What about this $900m going into Ohio for a "mystery product" coming 2023? There's a lot of similarities between CD4 and C2 it seems from my observations as far as that mystery product for Ohio, it's that to be revealed electric SUV that was originally announced to go to FRAP but they changed the plan again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: What do you mean, the threatening to close FRAP? No that was on the table until literally the morning the TA was announced and there was a plan to relocate Mustang elsewhere in the USA. No I mean Ford using the we have a exit strategy lingo in the past. Anything can change with them. Look how they moved the electric crossovers from flat rock that they so called promised. I was surprised when I heard they will be built in Ohio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 3 hours ago, jasonj80 said: Also remember Flat Rock cant build anything with a tall roof. Oakville has issues working against it. It is in Canada and it is expensive to produce there, the property that it sits on is worth billions of dollars, and most importantly it doesn't have enough product to fill it. You need two full guaranteed shifts of production to make an plant profitable. You also have Unifor which isn't the most pleasurable/smartest group to deal with Jerry Dias who loves a camera and stirring the pot even more than Trump. Canada however has some very nice trade agreements around the world and could make multiple vehicles as both a main production site as well as secondary site for products that are made in the US but face steeper tariffs when they are exported and the Edge name and vehicle configuration is not going anywhere. This whole story came from a AutoForcast Solutions which ironically had its contract with Ford terminated because of cutbacks, like many other consultant companies Ford has severed ties with over the past 2 months. Great post Jason. Thanks for your thoughtful analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oacnewbie Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 My opinion Ford is going to push the Fed/Provincial government for money and tax breaks, and ask the workers for concessions. Probably bring back 2 tier, or have 20-30% of the plant workforce as permanent "temps" and likely a wage freeze for 4 years. Ford will need a flexible workforce due to the pandemic and will want some agreement with Unifor to be able to bring in and remove workers as necessary to facilitate higher/lower production volumes. The Canadian government at both levels should be willing to give out money/tax breaks/electricity rebates because of the Coronavirus, and Unifor will agree to Fords proposal stating the need to be more competitive to relative to the US plants. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) On 6/17/2020 at 1:07 PM, oacnewbie said: My opinion Ford is going to push the Fed/Provincial government for money and tax breaks, and ask the workers for concessions. Probably bring back 2 tier, or have 20-30% of the plant workforce as permanent "temps" and likely a wage freeze for 4 years. Ford will need a flexible workforce due to the pandemic and will want some agreement with Unifor to be able to bring in and remove workers as necessary to facilitate higher/lower production volumes. The Canadian government at both levels should be willing to give out money/tax breaks/electricity rebates because of the Coronavirus, and Unifor will agree to Fords proposal stating the need to be more competitive to relative to the US plants. What you’re saying makes a lot of sense I wouldn’t doubt if it plays out like that. We all know that Ford wants concessions forsure, this covid-19 mess helped them in a big way. They were already coming for concessions this just bolstered them even more. Edited July 29, 2020 by Oacjay98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 hours ago, oacnewbie said: Never heard anything about that, can you elaborate bit? The next generation Edge and Nautilus were set to ride on CD6, but those plans were scrapped completely. A C2- based, midsized utility project that had stalled was given new life as the next Edge. AFAIK, there shouldn't be enough overlap between Edge and Fusion to deem one of them redundant, but everything is under review right now and I don't expect everything in the current pipeline to survive. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKX1960 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 11 hours ago, sullynd said: Isn’t Ford somewhat production constrained? That’s part of what killed Focus and Fusion right? Seems like negotiation ploy to me. There’s too big of a gap between the Escape and Explorer in my opinion and I don’t think Broncos fill it. For the most part, I don't see Edge customers shopping Bronco or Bronco Sport. Many would likely choose another brand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 15 hours ago, jpd80 said: Before UAW deal, the rumour was that after MKZ and Continental end, Mustang would move to Oakville and FRAP closes. I wonder if UNIFOR contract negotiation is the mirror image of that, with Edge successor moving to FRAP with Mustang. Ford negotiations = Divide and conquer. That's what you are suppose to do in these type negotiations. GM and FCA are not different. Nor is any other company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 6 hours ago, PREMiERdrum said: The next generation Edge and Nautilus were set to ride on CD6, but those plans were scrapped completely. A C2- based, midsized utility project that had stalled was given new life as the next Edge. AFAIK, there shouldn't be enough overlap between Edge and Fusion to deem one of them redundant, but everything is under review right now and I don't expect everything in the current pipeline to survive. They've really gutted the CD6 project haven't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Just now, rmc523 said: They've really gutted the CD6 project haven't they? He's been saying that for a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 27 minutes ago, rmc523 said: They've really gutted the CD6 project haven't they? Well given the fact that Ford dropped sedans like a bad habit and I don't really see a need for a RWD Mid sized CUV (even though it was rumored to be FWD) and given the current conditions, I don't see the need to have anything else on it. The Mustang could solider on its current platform for another 10 years or so, and that raises the question of it going electric, which it could share its platform with the Mach E (and other electrics), even though most people would lose their shit over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 37 minutes ago, rmc523 said: They've really gutted the CD6 project haven't they? Many programs have been "adjusted for economic reality." The end result will see some traces of CD6's sophistication trickle down into the C2 Edge. The modular nature of their recent efforts is key. The segment directive remains clear: They don't want to put a compromised product to market. By the time the CD6 Edge was shitcanned, there were concerns it was losing what it was. I feared something close to a Passport/Pilot scenario. Speaking of programs being adjusted for economic reality, we should hope that the three-wide Bronco family is embraced... Bigly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 1 minute ago, PREMiERdrum said: Speaking of programs being adjusted for economic reality, we should hope that the three-wide Bronco family is embraced... Bigly. As in F-150/Expedition sized one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, PREMiERdrum said: Bigly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopsui Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Why can't I just get a 2 row Explorer/Aviator to replace my Grand Cherokee? Is that not a big enough market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 6 hours ago, chopsui said: Why can't I just get a 2 row Explorer/Aviator to replace my Grand Cherokee? Is that not a big enough market? The Grand Cherokee sold roughly 242K units last year, but is the top of the line product for Jeep, with an Explorer or Expedition sized vehicle to pull sales away from it. The Edge and MKX/Nautilus sold about 170K units last year and the Explorer sold 187,061, but that was a shitshow of a launch (it sold 261K units the year before) Maybe if Ford wanted to go after the GC, it would be better served by a larger Bronco? ?♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlghtjr90 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 6 hours ago, chopsui said: Why can't I just get a 2 row Explorer/Aviator to replace my Grand Cherokee? Is that not a big enough market? I mean, that is exactly what Edge/Nautilius are supposed to be.. perhaps the Bronco will match the style better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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