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Retained Customers When Ford Cars Are Gone.


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2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

If Sedans are going to make up only make 12% of the market in 5 years and you have a half dozen to dozen companies competing for that piece of the pie...why put money into something that isn't as profitable as a truck or SUV?

 

Could it be that part of the 12% number is because people are doing away with them?  I love my F350, I love my Explorer ST but I also love a nice car to drive in as well.  

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They probably have other platforms shared across the globe that they feel it's still worth the effort.  Ford has decided otherwise.

 

The only reason I'd look at a sedan at all is if I needed something with good fuel economy because I'm driving mega miles.  That's it...

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39 minutes ago, blwnsmoke said:

 

Could it be that part of the 12% number is because people are doing away with them?  I love my F350, I love my Explorer ST but I also love a nice car to drive in as well.  

 

I'm sure that has a little to do with it, but at the same time its a self realizing prophecy...companies can't make money on a product, so they are going to cut funding or keep it going as a long as possible to make the most $$ off it. 

Lets flip this around-Toyota has the oldest "truck" fleet in the market. The FourRunner is a dinosaur along with the Tacoma and Tundra. 

 

The Taco is best selling small pickup in the US, but for how long? The current Ranger is better then it and the next gen, going on what the Bronco is going to be, will be a world beater. The FourRunner is going to get run over by the Bronco when it comes out and the Tundra just goes at its own pace. The Taco and FourRunner are going to have their lunches eaten by the competition. I know the Taco is due for an update, but the new Ranger should be out within 12 months or that happening.

It also seems like most of Toyota's lineup is older or just has refreshes-which is good for the backend of operations to keep profits up, but if they don't keep with the updates, they run the issue of getting left behind. 

I can see the Ranger, if Ford wanted it to, be the best selling small pickup on the market. I'm just not sure if MAP can do that between the Ranger and Bronco. But its possible in the next 3-5 years.  

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Another thing to consider-Just use the Focus and Escape as an example since they share the same architecture. 

 

Say you have $500 (a number I pulled out of my ass..I know its more like a Billion or so) to spend on a new product like C class product.

 

Do you spend $100-150 of that to come out with a sedan/hatchback or do you just spend $50 bucks to come out with something like a Bronco Sport? Which product is going to deliver more profits?

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10 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

It also seems like most of Toyota's lineup is older or just has refreshes-which is good for the backend of operations to keep profits up, but if they don't keep with the updates, they run the issue of getting left behind. 

 

In the U.S., most Toyota brand passenger cars and crossovers have been completely redesigned within the past 4 years using TNGA platform. Main exceptions are the rebadged products. 86 (Subaru based), Yaris (Mazda based), Supra (BMW based).

 

Toyota's BOF trucks and SUVs are getting ancient though. Only Tacoma received a major update since 2016. Current Tundra, 4Runner, Sequoia, and Land Cruiser have all soldiered on for more than a decade.

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33 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Another thing to consider-Just use the Focus and Escape as an example since they share the same architecture. 

 

Say you have $500 (a number I pulled out of my ass..I know its more like a Billion or so) to spend on a new product like C class product.

 

Do you spend $100-150 of that to come out with a sedan/hatchback or do you just spend $50 bucks to come out with something like a Bronco Sport? Which product is going to deliver more profits?

 

That's not entirely fair guesstimate though, as Focus (at least hatch) already exists for ROW/Europe.

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49 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Another thing to consider-Just use the Focus and Escape as an example since they share the same architecture. 

 

Say you have $500 (a number I pulled out of my ass..I know its more like a Billion or so) to spend on a new product like C class product.

 

Do you spend $100-150 of that to come out with a sedan/hatchback or do you just spend $50 bucks to come out with something like a Bronco Sport? Which product is going to deliver more profits?

 

I agree to an extent.  You may not make a ton of money on the lower sedans but if you are losing those customers to competition because they want a car, then a little profit is better then no profit (pending production isn't limiting the more profitable vehicles).

 

Now if a vehicle is costing you money to make then I agree kill it.  You want to deposit the checks, not write them.

Edited by blwnsmoke
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11 minutes ago, blwnsmoke said:

 

I agree to an extent.  You may not make a ton of money on the lower sedans but if you are losing those customers to competition because they want a car, then a little profit is better then no profit (pending production isn't limiting the more profitable vehicles).


A little profit is better than no profit - and if they were simply killing cars with no replacements that would be a valid argument.

 

But they’re replacing fusion, Focus, fiesta and Taurus with Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport, Maverick, BEV F150, BEV Transit, Mach-E and two more Bev utilities.   I can almost guarantee those will bring in a lot more conquest buyers and a lot more profits.

 

So it isn’t a question of no profit vs a little profit.  It’s a little profit vs a lot of profit.

 

Not sure why this has to be repeated over and over and over.

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32 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

That's not entirely fair guesstimate though, as Focus (at least hatch) already exists for ROW/Europe.

 

Right, but I was talking about an entirely new platform. It might get to the point that worldwide, sedans fall out of favor. 

 

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

 

The Taco is best selling small pickup in the US, but for how long? The current Ranger is better then it and the next gen, going on what the Bronco is going to be, will be a world beater. The FourRunner is going to get run over by the Bronco when it comes out and the Tundra just goes at its own pace. The Taco and FourRunner are going to have their lunches eaten by the competition. I know the Taco is due for an update, but the new Ranger should be out within 12 months or that happening.

I can see the Ranger, if Ford wanted it to, be the best selling small pickup on the market. I'm just not sure if MAP can do that between the Ranger and Bronco. But its possible in the next 3-5 years.  

 

Boy you are drinking the Kool-aid today!!!  Ford has not sold one fucking Bronco or updated Ranger and you are already predicting it will bury Toyota-come on...you know better!  Buyers are fiercely loyal to their Toyota trucks just like they are to their F150's and while the Tacoma is dated-it is not that much worse than the current Ranger and in some ways, you could argue it is better. 

 

Toyota will not just roll over and give up this market-not a chance-so any chance of catching Toyota will have to likely come from other's in the market or that it continues to grow and they pick up those customer's. 

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I'm sure that has a little to do with it, but at the same time its a self realizing prophecy...companies can't make money on a product, so they are going to cut funding or keep it going as a long as possible to make the most $$ off it. 

Lets flip this around-Toyota has the oldest "truck" fleet in the market. The FourRunner is a dinosaur along with the Tacoma and Tundra. 

 

The Taco is best selling small pickup in the US, but for how long? The current Ranger is better then it and the next gen, going on what the Bronco is going to be, will be a world beater. The FourRunner is going to get run over by the Bronco when it comes out and the Tundra just goes at its own pace. The Taco and FourRunner are going to have their lunches eaten by the competition. I know the Taco is due for an update, but the new Ranger should be out within 12 months or that happening.

It also seems like most of Toyota's lineup is older or just has refreshes-which is good for the backend of operations to keep profits up, but if they don't keep with the updates, they run the issue of getting left behind. 

I can see the Ranger, if Ford wanted it to, be the best selling small pickup on the market. I'm just not sure if MAP can do that between the Ranger and Bronco. But its possible in the next 3-5 years.  

 

The thing about those dinosaur Toyota products is that they've been proven out over time and offer a lot of reliability.  I know many people here in Fla., that would never consider leaving Toyota and go back to purchasing anything else due to that reliability.

 

What's the sales ratio of Ford Ranger vs. Toyota Tacoma fleet sales?  I don't see Toyota truck products in government and rental fleets, however I see Ranger and Explorers stocked up at virtually every city government.

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2 hours ago, akirby said:


A little profit is better than no profit - and if they were simply killing cars with no replacements that would be a valid argument.

 

But they’re replacing fusion, Focus, fiesta and Taurus with Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport, Maverick, BEV F150, BEV Transit, Mach-E and two more Bev utilities.   I can almost guarantee those will bring in a lot more conquest buyers and a lot more profits.

 

So it isn’t a question of no profit vs a little profit.  It’s a little profit vs a lot of profit.

 

Not sure why this has to be repeated over and over and over.

 

Because some people want a car.. not a CUV, not a SUV or a truck.  I am on my 5th Ford in 20 years and have blue blood but I will not buy a SUV to stay with Ford if I want a car and they do not offer it.  I am not the only one.  I am not saying they need 6 different models, but I wish they would keep a couple around.  Heck the fusion completely redone and the Continental would be perfect for most.

 

Every single model you stated falls in the "not a car" category.  That is why SOME keep repeating themself.  

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9 minutes ago, blwnsmoke said:

 

Because some people want a car.. not a CUV, not a SUV or a truck.  I am on my 5th Ford in 20 years and have blue blood but I will not buy a SUV to stay with Ford if I want a car and they do not offer it.  I am not the only one.  I am not saying they need 6 different models, but I wish they would keep a couple around.  Heck the fusion completely redone and the Continental would be perfect for most.

 

Every single model you stated falls in the "not a car" category.  That is why SOME keep repeating themself.  


Saying that you’re disappointed that Ford won’t have sedans because you like them is understandable but it is a COMPLETELY different argument than saying Ford needs to keep sedans because some people still like them and it’s good business.  

 

 

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21 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Lately I've been noticing a lot of Focus/Fusions in traffic.  Nothing scientific, I just seem to see a good number.  Now looking at 2019, I  note in round numbers 6 mos YTD Fusion sales were a bit under 100,000 units.  The apparent Hackett logic is cars are dead, the age of the suv/crossover is here.  Now I'm sure that most of the regulars on BON will for sure not jump ship.  But of those 200,000 annualized Fusion sales, any guess as to what the retention percentage will be?

 

The sad fact is, there are plenty of nice alternatives out there.  And yes I understand (as we have been told) that Kia, Hyundai, Subaru  etc are ALL losing their ass on car sales.  So anyone think that the departure of Ford-as well as GM and FCA from the business of making cars may give these others second thoughts?

 

I can tell you what I did: I bought a used 2018 Fusion Hybrid. I wasn't quite ready for a new car when my old one threw craps at 226K miles. I hope to get at least 5 years out of this car. If Ford hasn't changed their tune by then, I'll buy from their new partner VW or from their old subsidiary Mazda.  Of course, there's no chance I'll buy a Toylet, Yawnda, Pissan, or Stupidru.

Glass House parroters, fire away and tell me how wrong I am.

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4 hours ago, robertlane said:

 

The thing about those dinosaur Toyota products is that they've been proven out over time and offer a lot of reliability.  I know many people here in Fla., that would never consider leaving Toyota and go back to purchasing anything else due to that reliability.

 

What's the sales ratio of Ford Ranger vs. Toyota Tacoma fleet sales?  I don't see Toyota truck products in government and rental fleets, however I see Ranger and Explorers stocked up at virtually every city government.

 

There will be a point that they will need to improve their products, because they will be behind the competition if they don't keep improving it.

Plus it seems like newer Toyota's aren't as bullet-proof as the older one-Their cars from the 1990 where bullet proof...but over the past 10 years (lining up updated products) their reliability rates have gone down.  

 

You need to keep improving your products, if you don't, your competition will pass you by. 

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8 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I'm sure that has a little to do with it, but at the same time its a self realizing prophecy...companies can't make money on a product, so they are going to cut funding or keep it going as a long as possible to make the most $$ off it. 

Lets flip this around-Toyota has the oldest "truck" fleet in the market. The FourRunner is a dinosaur along with the Tacoma and Tundra. 

 

The Taco is best selling small pickup in the US, but for how long? The current Ranger is better then it and the next gen, going on what the Bronco is going to be, will be a world beater. The FourRunner is going to get run over by the Bronco when it comes out and the Tundra just goes at its own pace. The Taco and FourRunner are going to have their lunches eaten by the competition. I know the Taco is due for an update, but the new Ranger should be out within 12 months or that happening.

It also seems like most of Toyota's lineup is older or just has refreshes-which is good for the backend of operations to keep profits up, but if they don't keep with the updates, they run the issue of getting left behind. 

I can see the Ranger, if Ford wanted it to, be the best selling small pickup on the market. I'm just not sure if MAP can do that between the Ranger and Bronco. But its possible in the next 3-5 years.  


Yes we can. We were capable of building over 300k annually just 5 short years ago, the only thing that changed is what comes off the line now. 

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5 hours ago, robertlane said:

 

The thing about those dinosaur Toyota products is that they've been proven out over time and offer a lot of reliability.  I know many people here in Fla., that would never consider leaving Toyota and go back to purchasing anything else due to that reliability.

 

What's the sales ratio of Ford Ranger vs. Toyota Tacoma fleet sales?  I don't see Toyota truck products in government and rental fleets, however I see Ranger and Explorers stocked up at virtually every city government.

 

5 hours ago, blwnsmoke said:

 

Because some people want a car.. not a CUV, not a SUV or a truck.  I am on my 5th Ford in 20 years and have blue blood but I will not buy a SUV to stay with Ford if I want a car and they do not offer it.  I am not the only one.  I am not saying they need 6 different models, but I wish they would keep a couple around.  Heck the fusion completely redone and the Continental would be perfect for most.

 

Every single model you stated falls in the "not a car" category.  That is why SOME keep repeating themself.  

Well staying with these two thoughts, and looking at the stats R'817 put up, I  have to say I'm surprised Ford is so high on that list in terms of loyalty. 

 

But even before I saw those numbers, I was going to say, while my guess most of the regulars on this site do have "blue blood" that goes back a generation or two, how many young people do you know who grew up in households where the only cars they ever had in their drive were Toyotas, Hondas, Subarus, Vws etc etc?  I'm a true "senior citizen here and in high school in my day,  you were a Ford, GM or Mopar guy.  And like a lot of you I grew up surrounded by Ford cars, trucks and tractors.

 

Next generation?  I'm afraid it will be different.

 

Just to let you know though-I've done my part..youngest son has an Expy, Ranger and 74 EB and oldest  has Expy, F-150 and also 74 EB!?

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3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

You need to keep improving your products, if you don't, your competition will pass you by. 

 

Yes sir silvrsvt. A related lesson is that a lost good name is never retrieved. Ford learned both the hard way multiple times in its history.    

Edited by rperez817
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Ironically, tonight's conversation during dinner with my "ladies of leisure" (and their husbands who maintain them, and what magical witchcraft they must do in bed to prevent them from working....), this was the topic, "Why are sedans being phased out", so I explained it for awhile, some got it, some didn't... One did comment where it resonated with me, he's like "So if Ford is just focused on profit, and doesn't care about market share, does this make them a boutique brand"? Honestly, not any different than what Porsche has harped on for years. One was ticked to know Lincoln just killed the Conti, because he's anti-SUV and he drives one now, so hes left with "Where do I go next"?...

 

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32 minutes ago, ANTAUS said:

Ironically, tonight's conversation during dinner with my "ladies of leisure" (and their husbands who maintain them, and what magical witchcraft they must do in bed to prevent them from working....), this was the topic, "Why are sedans being phased out", so I explained it for awhile, some got it, some didn't... One did comment where it resonated with me, he's like "So if Ford is just focused on profit, and doesn't care about market share, does this make them a boutique brand"? Honestly, not any different than what Porsche has harped on for years. One was ticked to know Lincoln just killed the Conti, because he's anti-SUV and he drives one now, so hes left with "Where do I go next"?...

 


Except they’re not giving up meaningful market share - they’re growing it with entirely new vehicles (long term).  They’ll have somewhere around 25 models - how does that equal boutique?   SMDH.

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11 hours ago, ANTAUS said:

Ironically, tonight's conversation during dinner with my "ladies of leisure" (and their husbands who maintain them, and what magical witchcraft they must do in bed to prevent them from working....), this was the topic, "Why are sedans being phased out", so I explained it for awhile, some got it, some didn't... One did comment where it resonated with me, he's like "So if Ford is just focused on profit, and doesn't care about market share, does this make them a boutique brand"? Honestly, not any different than what Porsche has harped on for years. One was ticked to know Lincoln just killed the Conti, because he's anti-SUV and he drives one now, so hes left with "Where do I go next"?...

 

 

Except Porsche has expanded its offerings to include a sedan and crossovers. In 1990, anyone who suggested that Porsche would build a Jeep Cherokee-type vehicle would have been viewed as certifiably crazy. 

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14 hours ago, ANTAUS said:

Ironically, tonight's conversation during dinner with my "ladies of leisure" (and their husbands who maintain them, and what magical witchcraft they must do in bed to prevent them from working....), this was the topic, "Why are sedans being phased out", so I explained it for awhile, some got it, some didn't... One did comment where it resonated with me, he's like "So if Ford is just focused on profit, and doesn't care about market share, does this make them a boutique brand"? Honestly, not any different than what Porsche has harped on for years. One was ticked to know Lincoln just killed the Conti, because he's anti-SUV and he drives one now, so hes left with "Where do I go next"?...

 

 

I wouldn't classify Ford as a "boutique" brand like Porsche, but it's no longer a full line manufacturer anymore either which comes with risk. The risk is slowly becoming irrelevant as a major auto manufacturer. And the limited segments you are in grow stagnant for whatever reason  you are in big trouble. Kind of like having an investment portfolio too limited in scope. Hopefully the segments Ford plays in will remain strong and grow for decades. Ford is betting its future on it. 

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I easily understand the reason for Ford ending most of its sedans, but in no way do I understand the reason for getting rid or out of the sedan segment altogether. The sedan market is still huge and will remain so for a long time.

 

Ford made a big mistake with such a mild refresh of the Fusion and then made it worse with jettisoning the brand. Hackett should be fired for that one decision alone. No way would have Mulally dumped the Fusion/MKZ. No way with its 250,000 + sales/year. Ford spent years and billions building the Fusion brand, and the just dumped it.

 

They have done that countless times so that many customers will just stay away from Ford unless its F-Series or Mustang. Any other Ford nameplate can be gone just like that. Ford has a history of just ending the nameplate instead of actually answering customer complaints and improving it. So bye bye Fusion....a great looking sedan that had the potential to compete with anyone and did. Sad ending along with the MKZ. And two more hybrid nameplates gone.

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On 7/7/2020 at 3:56 AM, silvrsvt said:

 

Right, but I was talking about an entirely new platform. It might get to the point that worldwide, sedans fall out of favor. 

 

It's not so much about opportunity cost but more about maximised return with least number of builds.

 

The issue now is that Ford looks at it's production in terms of return from more expensive vehicles,

they would sooner see a plant like Louisville go back to one shift than add Focus production there

as that would drop return per vehicle which directly affects Ford's goal of maximizing return. 

 

I'm still hopefully that some cars will be added back in after all major product changes are completed,

but to expect an immediate reversal of product strategy is unrealistic at the moment.

Edited by jpd80
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