jpd80 Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 A car conceived in Japan, improved by the Chinese and made in South America Lets hope that nothing gets lost in translation..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 On 7/23/2020 at 8:40 PM, bzcat said: The original agreement with Mahindra was in 2017. That agreement called for Mahindra to supply Ford with a range of small cars and CUVs for sale in India and export to other low income countries. One would assume Ford entered into the agreement 3 years ago after seeing what Mahindra had in the pipeline... And those cars should be out on the street by now - and indeed, Mahindra had been introducing new CUVs over the last couple of years, just nothing for Ford. If Ford didn't really understand what they were getting, that's pretty egregious lapse in corporate governance. In October 2019 Ford basically pulled the plug in India and sold 51% of Ford India to Mahindra. The resulting JV which Ford now only own 49% is responsible for marketing and sales of Ford branded vehicle in India but one imagines Mahindra would rather build up its own brand then sell its latest cars under the Ford brand. Zoyte-Ford JV was also signed in 2017 around the same time as the original Mahindra supply deal. The plan was to begin production by 2020 with Zoyte based designs with initial volume of 100k units annually. It has not resulted in anything of substance: no factories have been built, no prototypes in development, no spy photos of mules. Zoyte is one of the hardest hit Chinese car company by Covid and it is in near collapse. Ford hasn't said anything about the JV for nearly 2 years so we can only guess. I think the Zoyte deal was just an MOU, not a formal deal like Mahindra. And good thing the Zoyte deal is dead. Zoyte execs are in hot water for embezzlement and company looks like it is going to be sold off. The first Mahindra-based suv is suppose to be based off the 2nd gen XUV500, which has yet to go on sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, passis said: Tomorrow is the lauch day of the Territory in Brazil. Journalists have already been in contact with the car and the relevant information but they are still under embargo. However, some leaks indicate prices ranging from US$31k to US$35k (whereas in China those trims seem be 18k and 22k). These are the price tags of Tiguans and Equinoxes. I don't know how much money Ford has invested in bringing the Territory but if these prices are correct, the car stands no chance. Today, one of our most traditional car magazines brings an article entitled "New Ford Territory has a 'fake' Toyota base, JAC transmission and 1977 engine". Isn't that the PR one can only wish for? Especially considering this is the first new launch in years (and years)... Anyway, the author claims to have traced back the origins of the Territory to the 2006 RAV4 Mk3. https://translate.google.com.br/translate?hl=pt-BR&sl=pt&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fquatrorodas.abril.com.br%2Fnoticias%2Fnovo-ford-territory-tem-base-toyota-fake-cambio-de-jac-e-motor-de-1977%2F PS: Lyle Watters seems proud, though If that's the price Ford has in mind, this is a disaster in the making. The article is a bit overly critical though... It appears that they do not understand that Yusheng is a Ford brand and Jiangling Motors (or JMC) is the JV not the parent entity. Ford owns 60% of JMC, Chang'an and Jiangling Holding own the rest. In another word, JMC has nothing to do with Landwind, which is just another company owned by Jiangling Holding. And while I agree the Mitsubishi 4G engine has roots that goes back 40 years, that is like saying GM's LS engine has roots that goes back 60 years to the original small block Chevy V8. One of the failure of JMC and Yusheng brands is that Ford never made it quite clear that they are Ford brands. Even in China, people think they are 100% local brands owned by local company as opposed to Ford owned brands manufactured by a joint venture (Jiangling Motors). Whereas Nissan's Venucia brand and GM's Baojun brand are much better marketed as indigenous brands owned by foreign companies. Another thing worth pointing out... GM is also selling two Chinese designed vehicles in Brazil. The Onix sedan and new Tracker CUV are both designed by SAIC-GM and uses engines developed by SAIC. But the level of scorn doesn't seem to apply to GM and this is all in the perception. People just don't understand that JMC is the same as SAIC-GM in this context. Edited August 7, 2020 by bzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodrigo Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 14 hours ago, passis said: Tomorrow is the lauch day of the Territory in Brazil. Journalists have already been in contact with the car and the relevant information but they are still under embargo. However, some leaks indicate prices ranging from US$31k to US$35k (whereas in China those trims seem be 18k and 22k). These are the price tags of Tiguans and Equinoxes. I don't know how much money Ford has invested in bringing the Territory but if these prices are correct, the car stands no chance. Today, one of our most traditional car magazines brings an article entitled "New Ford Territory has a 'fake' Toyota base, JAC transmission and 1977 engine". Isn't that the PR one can only wish for? Especially considering this is the first new launch in years (and years)... Anyway, the author claims to have traced back the origins of the Territory to the 2006 RAV4 Mk3. https://translate.google.com.br/translate?hl=pt-BR&sl=pt&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fquatrorodas.abril.com.br%2Fnoticias%2Fnovo-ford-territory-tem-base-toyota-fake-cambio-de-jac-e-motor-de-1977%2F PS: Lyle Watters seems proud, though Today the territory in Argentina was presented, the price of the titanium version is U$42.000. A Kuga hybrid it has a price of u$48.000 (just to compare). nobody is going to pay that money for a chinese vehicle, i think they were wrong.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passis Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Rodrigo said: Today the territory in Argentina was presented, the price of the titanium version is U$42.000. A Kuga hybrid it has a price of u$48.000 (just to compare). nobody is going to pay that money for a chinese vehicle, i think they were wrong.... It's nonsense what they are doing... For the prices we have here, one can buy a Ranger and keep some spare money in the bank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 6 hours ago, Rodrigo said: Today the territory in Argentina was presented, the price of the titanium version is U$42.000. A Kuga hybrid it has a price of u$48.000 (just to compare). nobody is going to pay that money for a chinese vehicle, i think they were wrong.... This is what Ford is doing in other markets, introducing new models that are a lot more expensive than the competition and then wondering customers don't support the products. Ford would never dare to do this in its home market but looks to be losing interest in some global markets like South America and the RHD band (Sth Africa-India-Thailand - Australia). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 21 hours ago, ausrutherford said: I think the Zoyte deal was just an MOU, not a formal deal like Mahindra. And good thing the Zoyte deal is dead. Zoyte execs are in hot water for embezzlement and company looks like it is going to be sold off. The first Mahindra-based suv is suppose to be based off the 2nd gen XUV500, which has yet to go on sale. It was a $765 million partnership where Ford and Zoyote were 50-50 partners. The real problem was the huge contraction in Chinese sales in 2018, I think Suite is on the ropes now..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 On 8/6/2020 at 6:52 PM, jpd80 said: A car conceived in Japan, improved by the Chinese and made in South America Lets hope that nothing gets lost in translation..... Gee...I remember the ad campaign for the Ford Escort when it came out. Ford advertised it as a "World Car". Because the car was around in one iteration or another in different markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, CKNSLS said: Gee...I remember the ad campaign for the Ford Escort when it came out. Ford advertised it as a "World Car". Because the car was around in one iteration or another in different markets. It was a joke based on a top gear episode where Clarkson said something like, a Russian car, improved by the Egyptians. (Lada designed to run on 76 octane) The context here is that Territory's Chinese design was supposed to deliver a more affordable vehicle than Escape, the pricing advice in recent days from South America would seem to suggest otherwise. Edited August 9, 2020 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probowler Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 Why sell a cheap car for cheap when you can sell a cheap car for a high price? Seems to be Fords MO lately. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passis Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 Something is wrong when VW can sell a 7 seats crossover based on its latest technologies, as is the case of the Tiguan Allspace, for less than Ford can sell a 5 seater with questionable qualities manifactured with lower costs in China... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 56 minutes ago, passis said: Something is wrong when VW can sell a 7 seats crossover based on its latest technologies, as is the case of the Tiguan Allspace, for less than Ford can sell a 5 seater with questionable qualities manifactured with lower costs in China... That depends - how many are each one selling? I mean, if they’re able to sell them for more money that’s a good thing. If they’re priced too high they won’t sell very many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passis Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 39 minutes ago, akirby said: That depends - how many are each one selling? I mean, if they’re able to sell them for more money that’s a good thing. If they’re priced too high they won’t sell very many. Motor1/BR has almost 700 comments on the Territory review. 99.9% are either criticising or making fun. How many of them Ford will sell is hard to say at this early point but most commentators seem to agree they will struggle to put the first lot of 250 (!) vehicles on the streets at these prices. For a reference, Jeep sold 60k+ of locally made Compasses last year (with starting price a little over U$20k) and VW sold around 15k imported Tiguans (starting at around U$24k). I really hope Ford makes a profit on this product in order to bring more and better products. But unfortunately I doubt it. I myself a Ford enthusiast wouldn't consider buying it - and driving a Ford guy into a rival dealership means something. The impression I have is Ford's name is deteriorating consistently in most international markets, despite the superb lineup arriving in North America. I know some markets are not easy, including/especially "mine", but other brands seem to manage so it becomes frustrating. I hope that, now that Ford is going in the right direction in its home market, they can recover elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 It's a pattern often repeated by Ford in ROW markets, it releases a new vehicle that promises much but with an uncompetitive high price point. The vehicle sells in the hundreds/mth and after a year, Ford starts losing interest and starts removing slow selling trims or body types, almost a guarantee that capitulation and withdrawl happens quietly in the next six months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 On 7/23/2020 at 8:19 AM, rperez817 said: Those customers don't need to be retained unless they move up the "value curve" as Ford sees it. Yep. Ford has loudly proclaimed they don't want my car business. They won't get my truck business, either. My SD replacement will be a Cummins powered Ram. My kids are shocked...I have never driven anything but FoMoCo. They don't need me...I sure as hell don't need them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, jpd80 said: It's a pattern often repeated by Ford in ROW markets, it releases a new vehicle that promises much but with an uncompetitive high price point. The vehicle sells in the hundreds/mth and after a year, Ford starts losing interest and starts removing slow selling trims or body types, almost a guarantee that capitulation and withdrawl happens quietly in the next six months. That's been the story of Ford for the last 20 years. By my count, here are a list of markets that Ford used to be in the top 3 on regular basis at the start of 21st century but no longer: 1. Australia 2. New Zealand 3. Taiwan 4. Philippines 5. Malaysia 6. South Africa 7. Brazil 8. Argentina 9. Chile 10. Mexico 11. Colombia 12. Ecuador Some of these markets are not trivial in size. I'm sure there are quite a few more... can't find very good historical sales stats for the Middle East for example. Also missing a bunch of European countries because the single EU market is masking Ford's huge decline in individual countries. For example, Ford used to be the leading non-Swedish brand in the Nordic countries but now is way down the list below all the Germans, Toyota, Hyundai and Tesla. A common theme in a lot of these markets is that Ford got there early, localized and dominated the market. Then the competition came and Ford just gave up. Hyundai is by far the biggest beneficiary of Ford's retreat in the last 20 years. You can basically timed the Ford's decline in most of these market by the timing of when Hyundai showed up in full force. The divorce with Mazda was another big blow since Ford's operations and products were bind tightly with Mazda in a lot emerging markets. Edited August 10, 2020 by bzcat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, 351cid said: Yep. Ford has loudly proclaimed they don't want my car business. They won't get my truck business, either. My SD replacement will be a Cummins powered Ram. My kids are shocked...I have never driven anything but FoMoCo. They don't need me...I sure as hell don't need them. Edited August 10, 2020 by fuzzymoomoo 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 Bronco, Bronco Sport, Ranger, Maverick, Mach-E and all the other new vehicle buyers will be much more likely to buy a F series than all those folks who were buying stripped down SE cars. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 5 hours ago, 351cid said: Yep. Ford has loudly proclaimed they don't want my car business. They won't get my truck business, either. My SD replacement will be a Cummins powered Ram. My kids are shocked...I have never driven anything but FoMoCo. They don't need me...I sure as hell don't need them. So according to your signature, your most recent car purchases have been Mustang and Fusion. Mustang isn't going anywhere. And what midsize sedan are you getting at FCA Stellantis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 On 8/10/2020 at 5:22 PM, rmc523 said: So according to your signature, your most recent car purchases have been Mustang and Fusion. Mustang isn't going anywhere. And what midsize sedan are you getting at FCA Stellantis? Ford hasn't made anything interesting enough for us to replace the Fusion. They let the Fusion rot on the vine. She will probably buy a Honda or Hyundai to replace the Fusion when it's done. The current Super Duty doesn't excite me. In my opinion, it isn't nearly as attractive as my '04. With Ford's lack of quality in the last several years; I wouldn't pay the premium over the Ram. Again, Ford says they don't need my loyalty. I bought my Mustang used. I liked the 13-14 better than I like the current generation. I don't dislike the new one...I just like mine better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, 351cid said: Ford hasn't made anything interesting enough for us to replace the Fusion. They let the Fusion rot on the vine. She will probably buy a Honda or Hyundai to replace the Fusion when it's done. The current Super Duty doesn't excite me. In my opinion, it isn't nearly as attractive as my '04. With Ford's lack of quality in the last several years; I wouldn't pay the premium over the Ram. Again, Ford says they don't need my loyalty. I bought my Mustang used. I liked the 13-14 better than I like the current generation. I don't dislike the new one...I just like mine better. I've been looking at your posts all day and really thinking about what you've said and I've gotta say that we should remember to never say never about vehicles. Five or six years ago, any suggestion of a Ranger or Bronco was shut down because the company line was that there simply was no place for either in Ford's line up. Today, completely different story because Ford sees great interest and profit in both. So does this mean that cars will make a comeback? Possibly and here's why I think so, Ford has done a great job of exterminating it's sedans, the fusion being the most difficult to kill which kinda tells me that there are quite a few rusted on car buyers still wanting a non-utility so I see Mustang - Mustang Mach E and think perhaps a sedan between but we're not in Kansas anymore toto......any suggestion like that runs contra to Ford's current line but maybe things change in the future...... Edited August 13, 2020 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 On 8/10/2020 at 1:30 PM, bzcat said: A common theme in a lot of these markets is that Ford got there early, localized and dominated the market. Then the competition came and Ford just gave up. This has been Ford's M.O. throughout its history, everywhere they operate. In the U.S. market, Ford hasn't completely given up (or gone belly up) yet. But the steep decline in Ford's U.S. market share in the past 50 years is an example of the same theme you described for other global markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 51 minutes ago, rperez817 said: This has been Ford's M.O. throughout its history, everywhere they operate. In the U.S. market, Ford hasn't completely given up (or gone belly up) yet. But the steep decline in Ford's U.S. market share in the past 50 years is an example of the same theme you described for other global markets. It's easy to have big market share when there are only 3 players in the game. And I feel the need to remind you once again that market share and sales without profit are meaningless. Ford could buy marketshare in a heartbeat by adding $5K rebates to every vehicle (in addition to whatever is there) and they'd fly off the lot. And Ford would lose billions. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, akirby said: It's easy to have big market share when there are only 3 players in the game. And I feel the need to remind you once again that market share and sales without profit are meaningless. Ford could buy marketshare in a heartbeat by adding $5K rebates to every vehicle (in addition to whatever is there) and they'd fly off the lot. And Ford would lose billions. I believe this practice is called, "Nissan:2000-2020". It seems like that didn't work out to well for Nissan but they sure did sell a lot of CRAP! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 38 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said: I believe this practice is called, "Nissan:2000-2020". It seems like that didn't work out to well for Nissan but they sure did sell a lot of CRAP! Poster child. I think they even admitted that was their plan and it didn’t work a couple of years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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