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Kinda reminiscent of the Jack Nasser era. Everything Ford bought, we ended up putting up big money and selling for pennies on the original purchase price. After his sacking from Ford, Bank One hired him due to his experience with acquisition. Or as Woody Allen said, a broker is someone who invests your money until it is gone.

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Think of the cell phone example.    Apple sells you an iphone for $800 revenue and makes a one time $300 profit.   Verizon/AT&T/T-Mobile/Sprint sell you a monthly service at $80/month for 5 years.  That's $4800 revenue and probably $2400 profit conservatively, probably more.  Which is better?

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On 8/6/2020 at 12:48 PM, akirby said:

Think of the cell phone example.    Apple sells you an iphone for $800 revenue and makes a one time $300 profit.   Verizon/AT&T/T-Mobile/Sprint sell you a monthly service at $80/month for 5 years.  That's $4800 revenue and probably $2400 profit conservatively, probably more.  Which is better?

 

Which company is the most profitable?

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1 hour ago, snooter said:

Ford technology is reminiscent of cheap china knock-offs....

 

That reputation is starting to change. Jim Hackett brought "design thinking" to Ford. This helps not only with innovation, but also makes new Ford developed technologies more human centered and useful for customers. 

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On 8/6/2020 at 9:50 AM, paintguy said:

Kinda reminiscent of the Jack Nasser era. Everything Ford bought, we ended up putting up big money and selling for pennies on the original purchase price. After his sacking from Ford, Bank One hired him due to his experience with acquisition. Or as Woody Allen said, a broker is someone who invests your money until it is gone.

Maybe that's why they call them brokers!  They make the company go broke!

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Instead of going into technology, stick with something you've done before, like farm tractor and class 8 truck!  Or anything with wheels, like mass transit, buses and start electrifying it all along the way!  But just thinking, is there any overhead with tech?  I don't think so.  Maybe that's why Google and Apple etc are so profitable!

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4 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

Instead of going into technology, stick with something you've done before, like farm tractor and class 8 truck!  Or anything with wheels, like mass transit, buses and start electrifying it all along the way!  But just thinking, is there any overhead with tech?  I don't think so.  Maybe that's why Google and Apple etc are so profitable!


There is a lot of overhead.  Software requires developers and developers require compute and storage infrastructure.  It requires less up front investment especially if you use public cloud but there is still significant overhead.


It really comes down to how much profit can be generated over the long term.  It’s always somewhat of a crapshoot.

 

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21 hours ago, akirby said:


There is a lot of overhead.  Software requires developers and developers require compute and storage infrastructure.  It requires less up front investment especially if you use public cloud but there is still significant overhead.

 

Now you are talking about something I know about (this was my job before I retired and I still have friend working in this area).

 

First, the cost of computing and storage for software development for automotives is DIRT CHEAP theses days.  Servers today cost $10-$20k.  20 years ago they were $100s of thousands !  A decent sized server room would fit in a large walk-in closet.  20+ years ago, you need a server room the size of a couple of tennis courts with multiple A/C units that were the size of 4 or 5 residential refrigerator.

 

Ford HAS recognized that they need a better, probably standardized, software development process than the dozen (or more) different "ad hoc" processes that they have.  Some people are trying to "build empires" on this premise.  Middle and upper level management don't want to touch this subject because it is so foreign to them.

 

The Ford IT Organization is a joke !  First level tech support is "off shore" and has no native English speakers.  Second level support is local, but their response window is 48-72 business hours.  Executives are insulated by having their  own IT staff that is on call 24/7, including home support.

 

Worse, the Ford IT organization are nothing but a policing organization.  They are great at telling you what you can not do and do nothing about helping you "get the job done".

 

21 hours ago, akirby said:


It really comes down to how much profit can be generated over the long term.  It’s always somewhat of a crapshoot.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, theoldwizard said:

 

Now you are talking about something I know about (this was my job before I retired and I still have friend working in this area).

 

First, the cost of computing and storage for software development for automotives is DIRT CHEAP theses days.  Servers today cost $10-$20k.  20 years ago they were $100s of thousands !  A decent sized server room would fit in a large walk-in closet.  20+ years ago, you need a server room the size of a couple of tennis courts with multiple A/C units that were the size of 4 or 5 residential refrigerator.

 

Ford HAS recognized that they need a better, probably standardized, software development process than the dozen (or more) different "ad hoc" processes that they have.  Some people are trying to "build empires" on this premise.  Middle and upper level management don't want to touch this subject because it is so foreign to them.

 

The Ford IT Organization is a joke !  First level tech support is "off shore" and has no native English speakers.  Second level support is local, but their response window is 48-72 business hours.  Executives are insulated by having their  own IT staff that is on call 24/7, including home support.

 

Worse, the Ford IT organization are nothing but a policing organization.  They are great at telling you what you can not do and do nothing about helping you "get the job done".

 


Hopefully they’re starting to use public cloud where you can bypass most of those IT roadblocks (but not all).

 

The servers are cheap but once you add support costs, floor space and environmental you’re usually into the millions.

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1 hour ago, theoldwizard said:

 

Now you are talking about something I know about (this was my job before I retired and I still have friend working in this area).

 

First, the cost of computing and storage for software development for automotives is DIRT CHEAP theses days.  Servers today cost $10-$20k.  20 years ago they were $100s of thousands !  A decent sized server room would fit in a large walk-in closet.  20+ years ago, you need a server room the size of a couple of tennis courts with multiple A/C units that were the size of 4 or 5 residential refrigerator.

 

Ford HAS recognized that they need a better, probably standardized, software development process than the dozen (or more) different "ad hoc" processes that they have.  Some people are trying to "build empires" on this premise.  Middle and upper level management don't want to touch this subject because it is so foreign to them.

 

The Ford IT Organization is a joke !  First level tech support is "off shore" and has no native English speakers.  Second level support is local, but their response window is 48-72 business hours.  Executives are insulated by having their  own IT staff that is on call 24/7, including home support.

 

Worse, the Ford IT organization are nothing but a policing organization.  They are great at telling you what you can not do and do nothing about helping you "get the job done".

 

 

 

My comments are related to Ford IT's maintenance on the FMCDealer.com portal which is done from late Saturday night through Sunday morning...

 

The majority (95%) of the work done is maintenance related and/or simple updates yet it's amazing how often there are problems afterwards because no one checks to make sure that any changes and/or updates made actually work. I've done a fair amount of software testing over the years for both Microsoft and Adobe so I have troubleshooting abilities that I can rely on to work around the problems left behind Ford IT that are sometimes not fixed for weeks. 

 

The FMCDealer.com portal is a secure site and they recently updated the log on page. There were instances in the past where you'd have to log on again in order to access certain parts of the site but now it's gotten far worse requiring users to constantly log in to access many sections of the site. 

 

Ford released the WBDO (Web Based Dealer Ordering) platform more years ago (5++) which is intended to replace CONCEPS yet they are still years away from completing WBDO from a development standpoint. Stock vehicle orders can all be ordered via the WBDO application but fleet orders still have to be entered in CONCEPS using order codes vs. the plain English used in WBDO. Sales reporting and all other applications still require using CONCEPS. Unfortunately, what usually happens is that they never get to the point of completing a software or application platform and scrap it before completion because they announce a new process that they start implementing.

 

Need help at FMCDealer.com? There's no one you call because users are required to submit an online form. Just going through the process to access the form is an effort. They promise a response in 2 hours but often the response is that your problem or concern requires more research. 

 

These are just a few examples of the frustration experienced by Dealers at the FMCDealer.com portal.    

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One of the biggest Ford IT disasters was something called Everest.  It was a purchasing system meant to replace the ancient IBM main frame system.  It was meant to be a "no touch" system.  Order were entered and when received at shipping and receiving were checked into the computer and the vendor was paid.  That is how it was supposed to work !  The short version is it did not.  "Non-production" turned into a nightmare for vendors who only did a few order with the company annually.  Many did not get paid "net 90" and there was literally no one left in "accounts payable" for them to talk to !  Some just refused to sell to the company.

 

After about a year, when IT threatened to shut down the old system, assembly plant managers got involved.  I don't know what their specific problem was, but Everest failed to solve it.  When a plant manager says a plant will shutdown people listen !  After several months of fumbling around, IT said that V2 of Everest would address all issue AFTER more detail analysis of what the open issues were.  The analysis and implementation phase were going to be much longer than V1 and cost much more than V1.

 

In the end, the decision was made to upgrade the IBM mainframes because it would cost a fraction of what the project Everest V2 upgrade was going to cost !  Everest, quickly amd quietly disappeared.

 

Automaker dumps Everest procurement system to revert to older technologies.

Edited by theoldwizard
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On 8/10/2020 at 9:06 AM, akirby said:


Hopefully they’re starting to use public cloud where you can bypass most of those IT roadblocks (but not all).

 

The servers are cheap but once you add support costs, floor space and environmental you’re usually into the millions.

In a few small cases, they are using public cloud but only because IT can not react fast enough to purchase and install new equipment.

 

Your second statement is COMPLETE WRONG !  Again, I have first hand knowledge of this.  30+ years ago your statements are accurate.  Today, with the PROPER personnel, design and implementation (admitted, not exactly up to Ford IT standards) less than a dozen people can support a key internal software development process (powertrain controls) on equipment that fits in 2 or 3 racks and would fit in a large closet.  30 years ago, this was 50+ people and server rooms the size of a couple of tennis courts !  I know this because I know the person who took over my job 13 years ago.  The process has not changed much, but the equipment and personnel has.

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3 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

In a few small cases, they are using public cloud but only because IT can not react fast enough to purchase and install new equipment.

 

Your second statement is COMPLETE WRONG !  Again, I have first hand knowledge of this.  30+ years ago your statements are accurate.  Today, with the PROPER personnel, design and implementation (admitted, not exactly up to Ford IT standards) less than a dozen people can support a key internal software development process (powertrain controls) on equipment that fits in 2 or 3 racks and would fit in a large closet.  30 years ago, this was 50+ people and server rooms the size of a couple of tennis courts !  I know this because I know the person who took over my job 13 years ago.  The process has not changed much, but the equipment and personnel has.

 

Well my organization is responsible for purchasing and installing thousands of servers every year in a wide variety of locations.   You can get away with a few servers in a closet for a very small non mission critical project but you can't do that with an entire IT department and suite of business applications.  You also have to consider the network infrastructure and large storage devices for large databases.   Now I'm sure Ford's IT systems are much smaller and less complicated than what I'm deploying but it still costs millions when you factor in power, cooling (you can't run hundreds of servers without some type of cooling), network infrastructure and all the associated costs.

 

It is definitely a lot cheaper than it used to be but not quite as cheap as you're suggesting.

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On 8/13/2020 at 9:13 AM, akirby said:

You can get away with a few servers in a closet for a very small non mission critical project but you can't do that with an entire IT department and suite of business applications. 

Worldwide powertrain software and engine/transmission/emissions calibration is what I would call "mission critical".  Probably less than a dozen servers running in floor space that would easily fit in a large closet.
Add another couple dozen highly customized "work stations" for software testing.

 

Quote

You also have to consider the network infrastructure and large storage devices for large databases.  

Networking is split off from mainstream IT and has been for many years.  The jumped on gigabit and fiber optics when they first became available.  I would give them an A- (always some room for improvement)

Storage is another issue.  They use MASSIVE NAS box (probably multiple petabytes).  Acceptable for most application, but it fell flat on its face when doing multiple parallel "builds" of powertrain software.

 

Quote

Now I'm sure Ford's IT systems are much smaller and less complicated than what I'm deploying but it still costs millions when you factor in power, cooling (you can't run hundreds of servers without some type of cooling), network infrastructure and all the associated costs.

 

It is definitely a lot cheaper than it used to be but not quite as cheap as you're suggesting.

For the entire corporation, it is not.  But corporate IT has lead shoes set in concrete.  They can not react to engineering needs or timing.  Many (most?) production are not designed, implement or run by IT.

 

Their entire focus is email (Microsoft Office/Outlook or whatever it is called these days) and making sure that financial systems meet the Sarbanes–Oxley Act and more recently that personnel system meet EU requirements.  Important task, but engineering typically needs to find its own solutions.

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What happens if the Powertrain servers are down for a day or two?  Does the company lose revenue?  Probably not.  I’m talking about systems that have to be restored withIn minutes or a couple of hours at most and which have to run in multiple locations.  Like the ford website and build your own, etc.  things customers use or things used to finalize a sale.

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  • 3 months later...

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