Did Ford make a mistake killing its sedans?

[valve]

16 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Wrong. It was Bob Shanks on a call with Wall Street that opened his mouth to try to be heroic and spilled the news prematurely.

 

Sorry, my error.

[twintornados]

On 9/3/2020 at 9:22 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

Speaking of police vehicles, sad day...........

California Highway Patrol Retires Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor After 36 Years Of Service

[jpd80]

22 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Wrong. It was Bob Shanks on a call with Wall Street that opened his mouth to try to be heroic and spilled the news prematurely.

No, Ford was forced into saying something after leaks from suppliers that next gen Focus and Mondeo had been cancelled.

It felt like the speculation continued for months until Ford finally fessed up.

 

What annoys me is that Ford did a half assed makeover in 2015 and virtually guaranteed that premium buyers would 

walk away from Fusion. I think that unfortunate decisions  was compounded by Ford thinking itcould import its cars

cheaply from China. Now that FRAP is being retained for Mustang, I hope Ford considers a companion 4-door  product.

[FordBuyer]

16 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

No, Ford was forced into saying something after leaks from suppliers that next gen Focus and Mondeo had been cancelled.

It felt like the speculation continued for months until Ford finally fessed up.

 

What annoys me is that Ford did a half assed makeover in 2015 and virtually guaranteed that premium buyers would 

walk away from Fusion. I think that unfortunate decisions  was compounded by Ford thinking itcould import its cars

cheaply from China. Now that FRAP is being retained for Mustang, I hope Ford considers a companion 4-door  product.

 

Well, the Dodge Daytona needs some competition. Bring on a 4dr Mustang. The Dodge Daytona shows there is a market for a sport sedan and a police market for it also. 

[probowler]

On 9/3/2020 at 5:22 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

Speaking of police vehicles, sad day...........

California Highway Patrol Retires Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor After 36 Years Of Service

A great vehicle, with a long life!

 

[ausrutherford]

2 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Well, the Dodge Daytona needs some competition. Bring on a 4dr Mustang. The Dodge Daytona shows there is a market for a sport sedan and a police market for it also. 

Daytona, eh?

 

[fuzzymoomoo]

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

No, Ford was forced into saying something after leaks from suppliers that next gen Focus and Mondeo had been cancelled.

It felt like the speculation continued for months until Ford finally fessed up.

 

What annoys me is that Ford did a half assed makeover in 2015 and virtually guaranteed that premium buyers would 

walk away from Fusion. I think that unfortunate decisions  was compounded by Ford thinking itcould import its cars

cheaply from China. Now that FRAP is being retained for Mustang, I hope Ford considers a companion 4-door  product.

That happened after Bob Shanks spilled the beans prematurely

[2005Explorer]

Fusion is one of the most respected midsized cars Ford ever built. It has always been considered very reliable (especially the CD3 platform version) and could have remained a strong seller with meaningful updates. You discontinue nameplates that are failures, but not ones that customers love and respect. Ford made a bad transmission choice with the Focus and Fiesta that really hurt the reputation of those cars, but the Fusion escaped those bad engineering decisions. The Fusion should have received meaningful updates because it was and is a very good vehicle. I can understand why the Fiesta and Taurus were discontinued, but I really wish Ford would have given us a new Focus and updated Fusion.

 

But then again the experts here also said T6 should never come to North America... Hmm...

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

That happened after Bob Shanks spilled the beans prematurely

My understanding was that suppliers were told that CD546N was cancelled in early December 2017,

that was leaked to the press but the official announcement came in April 2018.

Did Shanks say something as part of the December sales call or 2017 financial call?

[fuzzymoomoo]

6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

My understanding was that suppliers were told that CD546N was cancelled in early December 2017,

that was leaked to the press but the official announcement came in April 2018.

Did Shanks say something as part of the December sales call or 2017 financial call?

I believe it was the 2017 financial call in January 2018. Your timeline is otherwise correct. 

[akirby]

11 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

Fusion is one of the most respected midsized cars Ford ever built. It has always been considered very reliable (especially the CD3 platform version) and could have remained a strong seller with meaningful updates. You discontinue nameplates that are failures, but not ones that customers love and respect. Ford made a bad transmission choice with the Focus and Fiesta that really hurt the reputation of those cars, but the Fusion escaped those bad engineering decisions. The Fusion should have received meaningful updates because it was and is a very good vehicle. I can understand why the Fiesta and Taurus were discontinued, but I really wish Ford would have given us a new Focus and updated Fusion.

 

But then again the experts here also said T6 should never come to North America... Hmm...

Fusion is coming back next year but it won’t be a sedan.  
 

It seems like some people think Ford just dropped cars but they didn’t - they replaced them in product development with Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport, Maverick, Mach-E and several other BEVs.  

[FordBuyer]

55 minutes ago, akirby said:

Fusion is coming back next year but it won’t be a sedan.  
 

It seems like some people think Ford just dropped cars but they didn’t - they replaced them in product development with Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport, Maverick, Mach-E and several other BEVs.  

 

And none of them are SEDANS. Ford is for the most part a full line major auto manufacturer and the ONLY one without even ONE sedan in its lineup including the Lincoln division after the Continental ends shortly.

 

Many on here think that was a bad decision including Ford dealers who have a vested interest in the company. Ford also lost another hybrid and plugin model in the Fusion. Keeping one sedan, the Fusion, would have been a wise decision.

 

I think everyone gets it that Ford has only so many resources and the Focus and Taurus had to go, but the Fusion/MKZ are a real headscratcher.

 

As a result, Ford sales are going to be affected as the Bronco is almost a year away and Bronco Sport sales won't really get going until 2021. Meanwhile Fusion sales were usually good for 10,000-15,000/month.

 

There still is a strong market for sedans even if it is contracting. With the right product, you can do well. The minivan segment has been waning for decades, but Honda and Chrysler do well in it. The Fusion was a good sedan and Ford just needed to keep updating it. Ford's favorite M.O. is to let a vehicle die on the vine, and then give excuses as to why its retiring the nameplate.  

 

 

 

 

 

[akirby]

4 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

And none of them are SEDANS. Ford is for the most part a full line major auto manufacturer and the ONLY one without even ONE sedan in its lineup including the Lincoln division after the Continental ends shortly.

 

Many on here think that was a bad decision including Ford dealers who have a vested interest in the company. Ford also lost another hybrid and plugin model in the Fusion. Keeping one sedan, the Fusion, would have been a wise decision.

 

I think everyone gets it that Ford has only so many resources and the Focus and Taurus had to go, but the Fusion/MKZ are a real headscratcher.

 

As a result, Ford sales are going to be affected as the Bronco is almost a year away and Bronco Sport sales won't really get going until 2021. Meanwhile Fusion sales were usually good for 10,000-15,000/month.

 

There still is a strong market for sedans even if it is contracting. With the right product, you can do well. The minivan segment has been waning for decades, but Honda and Chrysler do well in it. The Fusion was a good sedan and Ford just needed to keep updating it. Ford's favorite M.O. is to let a vehicle die on the vine, and then give excuses as to why its retiring the nameplate.  

 

As usual you don’t understand the difference between sales and profits and you don’t understand corporate finance.  If a Fusion was profitable enough they would have found a way to keep it.  It wasn’t and a new one would not have changed much.  End of discussion.

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I believe it was the 2017 financial call in January 2018. Your timeline is otherwise correct. 

The point being that the story was leaked weeks before Shanks comments.

[fuzzymoomoo]

23 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The point being that the story was leaked weeks before Shanks comments.

Fusion being cancelled leaked early and Shanks dropped the bomb when someone asked about it. They weren't ready to say anything about it 

Edited September 5, 2020 by fuzzymoomoo

[jpd80]

29 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Fusion being cancelled leaked early and Shankes dropped the bomb when someone asked about it. They weren't ready to say anything about it 

They should have been.

Fields cancelled SLP a year before, that was the signal that extra production capacity for new products was not required.

The other shoe dropped a year later when NG Fusion was cancelled. Ford telegraph's it's plans and wonders why the press knows.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by jpd80

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

And none of them are SEDANS. Ford is for the most part a full line major auto manufacturer and the ONLY one without even ONE sedan in its lineup including the Lincoln division after the Continental ends shortly.

 

Many on here think that was a bad decision including Ford dealers who have a vested interest in the company. Ford also lost another hybrid and plugin model in the Fusion. Keeping one sedan, the Fusion, would have been a wise decision.

 

I think everyone gets it that Ford has only so many resources and the Focus and Taurus had to go, but the Fusion/MKZ are a real headscratcher.

 

As a result, Ford sales are going to be affected as the Bronco is almost a year away and Bronco Sport sales won't really get going until 2021. Meanwhile Fusion sales were usually good for 10,000-15,000/month.

 

There still is a strong market for sedans even if it is contracting. With the right product, you can do well. The minivan segment has been waning for decades, but Honda and Chrysler do well in it. The Fusion was a good sedan and Ford just needed to keep updating it. Ford's favorite M.O. is to let a vehicle die on the vine, and then give excuses as to why its retiring the nameplate.  

 

While I agree with your sentiments, I think that Ford was snookered badly by trying to offshore car supply,

those imports are either commercially or politically non-viable. 

 

I'm not against Ford repositioning its business squarely at trucks and utes, that needed to happen,

what annoys me  is that Ford has already spent money developing cars (Fiesta to Taurus) in other areas

but cannot find a way to successfully import them to the US.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by jpd80

[akirby]

Ford will make significantly more profit on 100K Bronco Sports than it would on 200K Fusions.  That’s just the reality of the midsized sedan market. Add in 50k Mavericks and it’s really a no brainer.

[Bob Rosadini]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

 

As usual you don’t understand the difference between sales and profits and you don’t understand corporate finance.  If a Fusion was profitable enough they would have found a way to keep it.  It wasn’t and a new one would not have changed much.  End of discussion.

Not to beat a dead horse,  but the Fusion and MKZ were built in Mexico.  What is the labor differential Mexico vs UAW?  Granted must be some logistics penalty Mexico vs US, but then again, what percentage of US built product has Mexican content?  I would have to believe that must balance out to some degree?  And what would it have taken to freshen up both the MKZ and the  Fusion?   

 

And as I and many others have pointed out, what do you miss when you have a limited product slate?  How insulated are you from the fickle swings in the market place? 

 

Seems like we are back to Henry's philosophy-"you can have any color, as long as its black".  And I do understand the difference between sales and profits.  

[jpd80]

13 minutes ago, akirby said:

Ford will make significantly more profit on 100K Bronco Sports than it would on 200K Fusions.  That’s just the reality of the midsized sedan market. Add in 50k Mavericks and it’s really a no brainer.

Not disputing that but  the original plan for Hermosillo required it's full +300K/year capacity.

Ford's original plan  was to build Bronco Sport, Maverick SUV, Maverick pickup and Transit Connect.

 

Under that plan, there was no room for Fusion and MKZ to continue, so Ford let them just fade away

long before Transit Connect and Maverick SUV were cancelled, leaving quite a bit of capacity spare.

 

Mid sized cars is a tough price sensitive market, going against that grain with a desirable high profit

vehicle is a tall order but not out of the question for an enterprising Ford. I just think that Ford is just

missing an opportunity to use Fusion as another change agent to press more with a C2 HEV/ PHEV.

(this is where I differ a bit to the sedan advocates, a Fusion but maybe closer to Mach E platform?)

[AGR]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

 

As usual you don’t understand the difference between sales and profits and you don’t understand corporate finance.  If a Fusion was profitable enough they would have found a way to keep it.  It wasn’t and a new one would not have changed much.  End of discussion.

And as usual, you parrot the company line in a condescending post. Although it is shrinking, the car market is still sizable. So when that loyal Ford car buyer not interested in a CUV (etc) goes to buy a new car, he or she will have to go to a competitor and Ford's revenue and profit from that customer will be ZERO. And if the customer is satisfied, Ford's future revenue and profit from this customer will be ZERO.

Edited September 6, 2020 by AGR

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Not to beat a dead horse,  but the Fusion and MKZ were built in Mexico.  What is the labor differential Mexico vs UAW?  Granted must be some logistics penalty Mexico vs US, but then again, what percentage of US built product has Mexican content?  I would have to believe that must balance out to some degree?  And what would it have taken to freshen up both the MKZ and the  Fusion?   

 

And as I and many others have pointed out, what do you miss when you have a limited product slate?  How insulated are you from the fickle swings in the market place? 

 

Seems like we are back to Henry's philosophy-"you can have any color, as long as its black".  And I do understand the difference between sales and profits.  

CUVs and BEVs are about as safe as you can get from a future market standpoint.  Just because you don’t have a sedan doesn’t mean you don’t have a full slate of products.   And remember we are getting a new Fusion - it just won’t be a sedan body type.

 

The problem is you had 7 or 8 models with very competitive Korean models and fleet dumping Nissan starting a price war on the low end and former Titanium buyers left for CUVs.  Ford was forced to sell Fusion SEs with $4K cash on the hood (at least).   Considering the margin on Fusion SEs was probably razor thin to start with it’s not hard to see why it was losing money.   Even a 4% margin on a $25K vehicle is only $1000.  Yes, a full refresh would have helped but not on the low end in the current market where sales of all models continue to shrink.  

[akirby]

1 hour ago, AGR said:

And as usual, you parrot the company line in a condescending post. Although it is shrinking, the car market is still sizable. So when that loyal Ford car buyer not interested in a CUV (etc) goes to buy a new car, he or she will have to go to a competitor and Ford's revenue and profit from that customer will be ZERO. And if the customer is satisfied, Ford's future revenue and profit from this customer will be ZERO.

I’m not parroting anything - I’m looking at the numbers and applying common sense.  And you’re completely ignoring how many NEW customers Ford will get from Bronco, Bronco Sport, Maverick, Ranger and all the variants.  And those customers will spend more and probably be much more loyal than Fusion sedan customers.  
 

Bronco and Bronco Sport have one competitor each  and they’ll have MSRPs up to two or three times as high as a Focus and a Fusion.  
 

If they killed Focus and Fusion and Fiesta without replacing them I might agree.  But you have to look at the trade off because that’s what it is.  You can’t add all those new vehicles including BEVs without cutting something.

 

They can bring back cars if they have excess capacity and resources down the road.  New Focus is already finished and new Fusion active will be ready next year.  It’s not like they threw them away completely.

[jpd80]

Looking over the last six years of Ford US annual sales figures, two things are apparent:

1. Ford's combined sales maxed out in 2014 and 2016 at around 2.5 to 2.6 million

2. Since 2017 Ford has been replacing about half of its lost car sales

 

It will be a while before Ford's figures get back to pre-covid levels, even with new products,

the sales mix will be a lot richer.

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by jpd80

[rperez817]

21 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

The Fusion was a good sedan and Ford just needed to keep updating it. Ford's favorite M.O. is to let a vehicle die on the vine, and then give excuses as to why its retiring the nameplate.  

 

I agree FordBuyer sir that Fusion was a good product overall. Fusion Hybrid and Energi in particular are probably the best sedans Ford ever produced. But in a segment in which "good" is merely the price of entry, Ford's "let it die on the vine" approach pushed Fusion toward the bottom of its class in its final years. 

 

I can't blame Ford for retiring Fusion as a sedan in the U.S. market (the nameplate may be re-applied to a future vehicle in another category). With Ford's reputation for ICE powered sedans effectively destroyed, it's past the point of no return for Ford to re-enter that segment. Maybe sedans will return when Ford produces only BEV.