Did Ford make a mistake killing its sedans?

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

I agree FordBuyer sir that Fusion was a good product overall. Fusion Hybrid and Energi in particular are probably the best sedans Ford ever produced. But in a segment in which "good" is merely the price of entry, Ford's "let it die on the vine" approach pushed Fusion toward the bottom of its class in its final years. 

 

I can't blame Ford for retiring Fusion as a sedan in the U.S. market (the nameplate may be re-applied to a future vehicle in another category). With Ford's reputation for ICE powered sedans effectively destroyed, it's past the point of no return for Ford to re-enter that segment. Maybe sedans will return when Ford produces only BEV.

In the past four years, sales of all mid sized sedans has fallen significantly and even Camry has seen

close to a 20% drop before 2020. It's got to the point where even the sales leaders are seeing sales

slide even with the newest and freshest vehicles.

 

 

[Harley Lover]

22 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The point being that the story was leaked weeks before Shanks comments.

 

And the point you continue to miss is that it was only 'rumored' until Shanks opened his mouth (without permission) and made it 'official' on the call with Wall Street.

[Rodrigo]

19 hours ago, jpd80 said:

No discuto eso, pero el plan original para Hermosillo requería su capacidad completa de + 300K / año.

El plan original de Ford era construir Bronco Sport, Maverick SUV, camioneta Maverick y Transit Connect.

 

Bajo ese plan, no había espacio para que Fusion y MKZ continuaran, por lo que Ford dejó que se desvanecieran.

mucho antes de que se cancelaran Transit Connect y Maverick SUV, lo que dejaba bastante capacidad libre.

 

Los automóviles de tamaño mediano son un mercado difícil y sensible a los precios, que van en contra de esa tendencia con un alto beneficio deseable

vehículo es una tarea difícil, pero no está fuera de cuestión para un Ford emprendedor. Solo creo que Ford es solo

perdiendo la oportunidad de usar Fusion como otro agente de cambio para presionar más con un C2 HEV / PHEV.

(aquí es donde difiero un poco de los defensores del sedán, ¿un Fusion pero quizás más cercano a la plataforma Mach E?)

 

really the transit connect was canceled for the factory in Mexico? the plan with vw and his caddy is not only for Europe?

[rmc523]

9 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

I agree FordBuyer sir that Fusion was a good product overall. Fusion Hybrid and Energi in particular are probably the best sedans Ford ever produced. But in a segment in which "good" is merely the price of entry, Ford's "let it die on the vine" approach pushed Fusion toward the bottom of its class in its final years. 

 

I can't blame Ford for retiring Fusion as a sedan in the U.S. market (the nameplate may be re-applied to a future vehicle in another category). With Ford's reputation for ICE powered sedans effectively destroyed, it's past the point of no return for Ford to re-enter that segment. Maybe sedans will return when Ford produces only BEV.

 

Exaggerate much?

 

1 hour ago, Rodrigo said:

 

really the transit connect was canceled for the factory in Mexico? the plan with vw and his caddy is not only for Europe?

 

I don't know if anyone is quite sure - the NG TC and Ford/VW arrangement and NG Caddy don't seem to line up properly, as it seemed like a lot of work has already been done on the NG TC to just throw it away.

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

Exaggerate much?

 

 

I don't know if anyone is quite sure - the NG TC and Ford/VW arrangement and NG Caddy don't seem to line up properly, as it seemed like a lot of work has already been done on the NG TC to just throw it away.

NG Caddy is out early next year, VW has taken over lead development of AV versions

[Joe771476]

On 9/3/2020 at 8:16 AM, akirby said:

AND?

AND, you don't think Dodge will stop at Chargers, do you?  Next they'll be pitching SUV's!

[akirby]

27 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

AND, you don't think Dodge will stop at Chargers, do you?  Next they'll be pitching SUV's!

Well FCA hasn’t surpassed Ford in either truck or SUV sales yet so I don’t think they’re worried.

[jpd80]

On 9/7/2020 at 5:34 AM, Harley Lover said:

 

And the point you continue to miss is that it was only 'rumored' until Shanks opened his mouth (without permission) and made it 'official' on the call with Wall Street.

Originally, it was implied that the first we knew about Fusion cancellation was Shanks blurting it out at a conference call,

the press got hold of the story nearly a month before with their sources confirming that supply contracts were cancelled.

 

This isn't the 1990s, to say it was "only rumors" is to deny the  reality of the situation, Bob Shanks 'fessing up was something

Ford had to do to stop months of speculation. As CFO, he made the decision to say something intended or not, that Wall Street

already knew. It actually suited Ford's purpose to make it go away and that's why I've said several times in the past  that Ford had

deliberately put the skids under Fusion since the modest 2015 MCE.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by jpd80

[351cid]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

 It actually suited Ford's purpose to make it go away and that's why I've said several times in the past  that Ford had

deliberately put the skids under Fusion since the modest 2015 MCE.

 

Pissing off your long time, faithful customer base is an excellent plan to bolster future sales of these so called miracle profit products?

 

My family gatherings used to look like a late model used Ford lot. Not so much lately. In the past two years, no one in my family has replaced their Ford with a Ford.  I don't plan to either.

 

 

[akirby]

55 minutes ago, 351cid said:

Pissing off your long time, faithful customer base is an excellent plan to bolster future sales of these so called miracle profit products?

 

My family gatherings used to look like a late model used Ford lot. Not so much lately. In the past two years, no one in my family has replaced their Ford with a Ford.  I don't plan to either.

So Ford should cancel Ranger/Bronco to keep making Focus and cancel Bronco Sport/Maverick to keep making Fusion.

Makes total sense.

 

[FordBuyer]

34 minutes ago, akirby said:

So Ford should cancel Ranger/Bronco to keep making Focus and cancel Bronco Sport/Maverick to keep making Fusion.

Makes total sense.

 

 

Uh, the Fusion could go back to half empty Flat Rock. Makes total sense. Maybe even a new dashboard, infotainment system with 8 speed trans. 

 

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, 351cid said:

Pissing off your long time, faithful customer base is an excellent plan to bolster future sales of these so called miracle profit products?

 

My family gatherings used to look like a late model used Ford lot. Not so much lately. In the past two years, no one in my family has replaced their Ford with a Ford.  I don't plan to either.

 

 

As I’ve said before, Ford made this into an either/or choice,

something I don’t believe needed to be as extreme as it was.

There are opportunities to do more with the right enterprising 

leader and I hope that Farley sees value in offering cars but

for now, their eyes are only on Bronco, Bronco Sport and Mach E 

[ehaase]

Ford needed to put the Focus and Fusion on a 5 year redesign schedule to compete seriously with the Asians. There should have been a complete redesign for the Focus for 2017 and Fusion for 2018. 

[jpd80]

55 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Uh, the Fusion could go back to half empty Flat Rock. Makes total sense. Maybe even a new dashboard, infotainment system with 8 speed trans. 

 

The money tin is empty which is the other thing Hackett did

so even if ford wanted to walk back it’s decision, there’s no

miney, resources or developed design that could be rolled out

inside three years.

[jpd80]

Just now, ehaase said:

Ford needed to put the Focus and Fusion on a 5 year redesign schedule to compete seriously with the Asians. There should have been a complete redesign for the Focus for 2017 and Fusion for 2018. 

COST

[fuzzymoomoo]

I love the people who say it was a decision made just to piss people off

 

I don't like it either but I understand the reasons they did it. It's not like they can't ever go back, they still have sedans they can very easily federalize if they see fit, not to mention these new architectures they're rolling out make it FAR easier and cheaper to tool up new plants for new models. Without getting too detailed, they've completely changed the manufacturing methods so it's more efficient, faster and is far more flexible than the old system. I know I've been very critical of Jim Hackett but I do have to say on the manufacturing side he's definitely made things more flexible. The question remains whether or not the white collar folks are on board. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by fuzzymoomoo

[ehaase]

13 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

COST

Then it's a good thing Ford got out of the sedan market and is building Rangers, Broncos, and Bronco Sports instead. 

[akirby]

29 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

As I’ve said before, Ford made this into an either/or choice,

something I don’t believe needed to be as extreme as it was.

There are opportunities to do more with the right enterprising 

leader and I hope that Farley sees value in offering cars but

for now, their eyes are only on Bronco, Bronco Sport and Mach E 

Factory wise, maybe.  But probably not from a product development/engineering standpoint.  I think some things have changed since the original plan 2 years ago.

Other than Fusion active, if we see another car it will probably be something different and not a fwd midsized sedan.  Something with less Direct competition.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

 

Uh, the Fusion could go back to half empty Flat Rock. Makes total sense. Maybe even a new dashboard, infotainment system with 8 speed trans. 

 

That assumes they’re not looking to close Flat Rock.  

[akirby]

32 minutes ago, ehaase said:

Ford needed to put the Focus and Fusion on a 5 year redesign schedule to compete seriously with the Asians. There should have been a complete redesign for the Focus for 2017 and Fusion for 2018. 

Agreed (or at least 6 years) and doing that would require cancelling or delaying at least two of the new vehicles.  I think that’s the part some don’t understand - there is a fixed amount of resources and to bring in so many new vehicles require cuts to others.

[FordBuyer]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

That assumes they’re not looking to close Flat Rock.  

 

I thought Ford was growing? Talk of closing Oakville and Flat Rock doesn't fit that narrative very well. 

 

I do agree that producing a 4 dr Mustang would be a good idea and give them there much needed profit margin. Should sell as well as the Charger and be a good police interceptor to boot. The sport coupe segment is not exactly growing. But it is profitable with the limited run specialty models. 

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Factory wise, maybe.  But probably not from a product development/engineering standpoint.  I think some things have changed since the original plan 2 years ago.

Other than Fusion active, if we see another car it will probably be something different and not a fwd midsized sedan.  Something with less Direct competition.

We may find that Ford has another change of heart once it sees its current plans come to fruition,

vehicles that are not justified on their own may well become valuable incremental production,

much the same way that Taurus begat Taurus X and then Explorer......but in reverse.

Edited September 8, 2020 by jpd80

[351cid]

10 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I love the people who say it was a decision made just to piss people off

 

I NEVER said it was JUST to piss people off. If this management team is as smart as they think they are; one of the brainiacs should have seen it coming. IMO, this will go down as the biggest marketing clusterf%&$ in modern history.

10 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

I don't like it either but I understand the reasons they did it. It's not like they can't ever go back, they still have sedans they can very easily federalize if they see fit, not to mention these new architectures they're rolling out make it FAR easier and cheaper to tool up new plants for new models. Without getting too detailed, they've completely changed the manufacturing methods so it's more efficient, faster and is far more flexible than the old system. I know I've been very critical of Jim Hackett but I do have to say on the manufacturing side he's definitely made things more flexible. The question remains whether or not the white collar folks are on board. 

I have very little confidence that Ford can bring a sedan back in less than 5-6 years. It took 3 for the Ranger. It will take Ford at least 2 years for it to occur to them that "Maybe the kool-aid wasn't the flavor requested".

 

I don't disagree on eliminating all but ONE sedan. Had they done a real, whole hearted Fusion update and moved it to Flatrock; then I could get on board. Ford has abandoned 25% of the market....25%. If they can't make money on a unit that one in four people are looking to buy; then maybe they aren't as smart as you fanbois think.

[fuzzymoomoo]

21 minutes ago, 351cid said:

I have very little confidence that Ford can bring a sedan back in less than 5-6 years. It took 3 for the Ranger. 

Ranger is not a good example. They had a build schedule for Focus/C-Max to build out in order for them to be able to even start retooling the plant. Any sense of urgency was negated by that. Explorer is a better example. After it was delayed it was only about 2 years from the time the program was restarted to production trials. Newer programs are getting faster. That is one of the directives from Jim Hackett that's actually starting to take hold. 

[silvrsvt]

6 minutes ago, 351cid said:

I don't disagree on eliminating all but ONE sedan. Had they done a real, whole hearted Fusion update and moved it to Flatrock; then I could get on board. Ford has abandoned 25% of the market....25%. If they can't make money on a unit that one in four people are looking to buy; then maybe they aren't as smart as you fanbois think.

 

They had THREE products that are competing in a market that makes up only 30% of the total market.

While the Fusion was good car, the thing about it is that the higher end models were not moving because people who had the $ buy them wanted a CUV instead.

The thing people fail to realize that cars have a fixed break even point that when it comes to sedans doesn't allow for much wiggle room.

 

Look at this way-Ford had three models:

Fiesta: started at $15K

Focus: Started ~$17K

Fusion: Started $22K

 

Thats all before incentives also. 

 

Look at the price ranges of the replacements for them:

Ecosport (Focus) $19995

Escape (Fusion)$24885

Bronco Sport (additional model-Fusion)$26660 

 

There is alot more wiggle room for incentives, not to mention smaller/cheaper platforms are being used as replacements (i.e. C class CUV is rough replacement for the midsized Sedan in the marketplace in sales) which allows for more profit. 

Not even factoring in the Edge, which has almost a $10K higher starting price then a Fusion...and the Explorer starts at $11K higher, but the vast majority of the models on the lot are most likely in the $40-50K range for an "average" XLT model.

I'm going to assume the Fusion CUV/wagon is going to be in the $28-30K range to start with and top out at $50K for those who want it...the current Fusion Sedan Hybrid is right at that range.