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Did Ford make a mistake killing its sedans?


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4 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

New Mustang coupe variants in model years 2020 and 2021, such as Shelby GT500 and GT500SE, Ecoboost PP, and Mach 1.

 

You're acting like that's out of the norm.  Ford adds those types of trims to Mustang with every generation - and usually toward the end of the lifecycle to keep interest going.

 

EcoBoost PP and Mach 1 just use parts they already had on the shelf, let's not pretend those are groundbreaking additional models.

 

And GT500 replaces GT350/R, so at best it's a lateral move numbers wise.

 

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It's not as if Ford just announced a new Thunderbird and Fairlane coupe to the lineup.

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8 minutes ago, akirby said:


Go compare prices on sedans vs the same size CUV.  CUVs are at least $5K more on the low end and probably $20k higher on the upper end.  

 

Mustang prices are similarly a lot higher and Mustang is an icon.

 

Fusion ATP was probably in the $25K range selling mostly SEs with $5K rebates while Bronco Sport will be in the mid to high $30Ks.

 

Thats the difference.   I don’t know why you can’t just accept the facts, say you’re disappointed and move on?

Wow, I see new Ecosports going for way under $20,000 and Escape SEs in the low $20,000 range. Not much wiggle room for profit there. Ford hasn't done enough with the titanium trim levels of those two brands to make them desirable. I believe Ford will regret their decision to end the FUSION. Again, I get the end of the Focus and Taurus. Lincoln will miss the MKZ also. And I get the end of the Continental.

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4 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

New Mustang coupe variants in model years 2020 and 2021, such as Shelby GT500 and GT500SE, Ecoboost PP, and Mach 1.


That’s adding trims to Mustang not adding to the segment with new vehicles.

 

But let’s go with that.  What do you think the average ATP is on those new Mustang variants?  Probably twice the Fusion ATP.

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3 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

Wow, I see new Ecosports going for way under $20,000 and Escape SEs in the low $20,000 range. Not much wiggle room for profit there. Ford hasn't done enough with the titanium trim levels of those two brands to make them desirable. I believe Ford will regret their decision to end the FUSION. Again, I get the end of the Focus and Taurus. Lincoln will miss the MKZ also. And I get the end of the Continental.


Ecosport and Escape are not the replacement for Fusion.  Bronco Sport and Maverick are the replacements in Hermosillo.

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16 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

There is also rumor of 4dr Mustang a la Potsche Panamera. 

Wishful thinking at this point, I think people read way too much into "Mustang and derivatives"

In Ford speak, a derivative shares more than 50% of parts, a sedan would change way more than that.

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19 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

You're acting like that's out of the norm.  Ford adds those types of trims to Mustang with every generation - and usually toward the end of the lifecycle to keep interest going.

 

EcoBoost PP and Mach 1 just use parts they already had on the shelf, let's not pretend those are groundbreaking additional models.

 

And GT500 replaces GT350/R, so at best it's a lateral move numbers wise.

 

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It's not as if Ford just announced a new Thunderbird and Fairlane coupe to the lineup.

 

I agree the additional Mustang coupe variants for 2020 and 2021 aren't "groundbreaking additional models", but they definitely affirm what FordBuyer said about Ford adding to the sport coupe segment. This is a segment Ford takes very seriously.

 

Mustang is the one passenger car nameplate Ford has consistently managed well over the years. They're doing an especially good job with the current generation coupe & convertible as well as the Mustang Mach E.

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4 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

I agree the additional Mustang coupe variants for 2020 and 2021 aren't "groundbreaking additional models", but they definitely affirm what FordBuyer said about Ford adding to the sport coupe segment. This is a segment Ford takes very seriously.

 

Mustang is the one passenger car nameplate Ford has consistently managed well over the years. They're doing an especially good job with the current generation coupe & convertible as well as the Mustang Mach E.

Mustang is an iconic heritage brand, the vehicles are definitely treated differently to other cars and utilities.

That extension of Mustang to Mach E was a way of rescuing and rehabilitating a BEV that was on a wrong plan.

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48 minutes ago, akirby said:


That’s adding trims to Mustang not adding to the segment with new vehicles.

 

But let’s go with that.  What do you think the average ATP is on those new Mustang variants?  Probably twice the Fusion ATP.

 

Heck, on GT500, is it possible they might make as much as a Fusion costs?

 

47 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

There is also rumor of 4dr Mustang a la Potsche Panamera. 

 

Even so, that wouldn't fall under the "sport coupe" market.

 

24 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

I agree the additional Mustang coupe variants for 2020 and 2021 aren't "groundbreaking additional models", but they definitely affirm what FordBuyer said about Ford adding to the sport coupe segment. This is a segment Ford takes very seriously.

 

Mustang is the one passenger car nameplate Ford has consistently managed well over the years. They're doing an especially good job with the current generation coupe & convertible as well as the Mustang Mach E.

 

As I already pointed out, they were lateral moves numerically, so "adding" isn't really true.  I forgot Mach 1 will replace Bullitt too.

 

And as Akirby said, Mustang is one of the icons - sure they're going to invest in it.

 

2 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


Mach 1 is pretty much just Bullitt with the GT350 Magna-Ride suspension and a different front Fascia. 

 

Yup, exactly - basically parts of the shelf (aside from the front fascia).

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17 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Mustang is an iconic heritage brand, the vehicles are definitely treated differently to other cars and utilities.

That extension of Mustang to Mach E was a way of rescuing and rehabilitating a BEV that was on a wrong plan.

Calling it a Mustang is exactly why so many people knows it exists. There was literally nothing in the Ford brand's names that could have conjured brand awareness. Falcon, Galaxie, Fairlane and Fairmont were popular cars, but the names have been put out to pasture so long, they wouldn't have worked. Had they named the Fusion the Taurus instead, and it had the same popularity, then it would have been possible to name it that, but Mustang still would have been the much better choice. After all, despite being a CUV, they didn't go with Explorer mach E, because that didn't even have the brand awareness that Mustang brings.

 

So as a Mustang owner and a Ford fan, I have to admit I would have gone along with Mustang Mach E as well.

Edited by atomcat68
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34 minutes ago, 70 Stang said:

I never thought Ford made a mistake with the Fusion, but I didn't know sedan sales were falling this much

 

https://fordauthority.com/2020/09/ford-fusion-sales-numbers-figures-results-q2-2020/

I also understand the Fusion and cars situation in the light of limited financial resources. However...

I believe at least in some markets Ford caused this fall on puropose by: announcing a couple of years ago the model would be discontinued with no replacement, then stopping imports and removing the car even from the website about a year ago. In markets where resale value is important, these decisions are pure poison.

Edited by passis
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3 hours ago, 70 Stang said:

I never thought Ford made a mistake with the Fusion, but I didn't know sedan sales were falling this much

 

https://fordauthority.com/2020/09/ford-fusion-sales-numbers-figures-results-q2-2020/


Some of that drop this year is due to Covid.  But I think even last year the market overall was down about 25% from just 3 years prior.  It’s quite dramatic over a short period.  And utility and truck sales grew at the same time so it’s clear buyers have been moving away from sedans to utilities and trucks.  Even Toyota and Honda so it’s not because of something Ford did or didn’t do with Fusion.

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3 hours ago, passis said:

I also understand the Fusion and cars situation in the light of limited financial resources. However...

I believe at least in some markets Ford caused this fall on puropose by: announcing a couple of years ago the model would be discontinued with no replacement, then stopping imports and removing the car even from the website about a year ago. In markets where resale value is important, these decisions are pure poison.


All true, but at that point the decision was already made.  So the sales drop due to no real updates and lack of advertising and premature announcements didn’t cause Ford to discontinue it as some (not you) want to believe.

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18 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


Mach 1 is pretty much just Bullitt with the GT350 Magna-Ride suspension and a different front Fascia. 

 

Not exactly. It basically bridges the gap between GT PP2 to the GT350. It will have the Bullitt engine, GT350 suspension/trans and coolers along with having it's own look. If I were to buy a Mustang of this generation, this is the one I'd buy.

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19 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Wishful thinking at this point, I think people read way too much into "Mustang and derivatives"

In Ford speak, a derivative shares more than 50% of parts, a sedan would change way more than that.

The opportunity Ford missed was extending the Mustang chassis to make decent back seat room & pop a new top hat on it. Boom. One offering in the mid size sedan market while utilizing an under utilized plant. Most engineering is already in place. Kind of a reverse of the original Mustang...an economy car developed off the Mustang chassis. As a bonus, the Mustang would be more profitable since increased volume spreads costs. 

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4 minutes ago, 351cid said:

The opportunity Ford missed was extending the Mustang chassis to make decent back seat room & pop a new top hat on it. Boom. One offering in the mid size sedan market while utilizing an under utilized plant. Most engineering is already in place. Kind of a reverse of the original Mustang...an economy car developed off the Mustang chassis. As a bonus, the Mustang would be more profitable since increased volume spreads costs. 

 

I doubt that Ford "missed" the opportunity that you think it has. Taking the Mustang global was a major change, including the investment to engineer and produce the Mustang specifically for RHD markets. In addition, a sizeable part of Flat Rock's Mustang production is for export markets and those vehicles are produced with different specifications and at much higher prices. 

 

Ford capitalized on expanding the Mustang franchise by introducing the Mustang Mach-E which has given them the attention and more than they would have achieved by introducing a 4-door initially. There's nothing preventing them from further expanding the Mustang line to include a 4-door model but I'd expect it to limited to a GT version. 

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44 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

I doubt that Ford "missed" the opportunity that you think it has. Taking the Mustang global was a major change, including the investment to engineer and produce the Mustang specifically for RHD markets. In addition, a sizeable part of Flat Rock's Mustang production is for export markets and those vehicles are produced with different specifications and at much higher prices. 

 

Ford capitalized on expanding the Mustang franchise by introducing the Mustang Mach-E which has given them the attention and more than they would have achieved by introducing a 4-door initially. There's nothing preventing them from further expanding the Mustang line to include a 4-door model but I'd expect it to limited to a GT version. 


I would also argue there was a big missed opportunity when it comes to being able to say every "Mustang" is built in one location instead of giving MME to Cuactitlan. The marketing practically writes itself with this new "Built for America" campaign they’re running. 

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59 minutes ago, 351cid said:

The opportunity Ford missed was extending the Mustang chassis to make decent back seat room & pop a new top hat on it. Boom. One offering in the mid size sedan market while utilizing an under utilized plant. Most engineering is already in place. Kind of a reverse of the original Mustang...an economy car developed off the Mustang chassis. As a bonus, the Mustang would be more profitable since increased volume spreads costs. 

351-You are making far too much sense here.! 

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10 minutes ago, 351cid said:

The opportunity Ford missed was extending the Mustang chassis to make decent back seat room & pop a new top hat on it. Boom. One offering in the mid size sedan market while utilizing an under utilized plant. Most engineering is already in place. Kind of a reverse of the original Mustang...an economy car developed off the Mustang chassis. As a bonus, the Mustang would be more profitable since increased volume spreads costs. 

 

It's an interesting thought. I am not sure Ford could of pulled it off, without some major compromises The Dodge Charger really started out as a Chrysler 300. The Camaro platform was built to be a Cadillac sedan from the start. The Chevy SS wasn't much of a hit. 

 

The Mustang is already kinda porky right now with that platform. Now to make it a competent sports sedan they would need to extend it and make it bigger (more weight/money) or try and lighten it up (even more money). Now most rear wheel drive sedans offer AWD these days. That would add more cost and even more weight. We'll just say a mustang based sports sedan would start at roughly 35 and fully loaded probably around 60. Is there much a market for a Ford sedan at that price?  Possibly, as the Charger sells respectably. Do people want to spend that much money on a  Ford sedan when they can get a Explorer ST in that price range? I don't have the market research to answer that question.

 

What would of made sense was to make it a Lincoln. However, dumping money in developing a 4 door Lincoln sports sedan based off of the Mustang when even luxury sedans were being abandoned for luxury CUV/SUV's might have not sounded like a good idea.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said:

 

It's an interesting thought. I am not sure Ford could of pulled it off, without some major compromises The Dodge Charger really started out as a Chrysler 300. The Camaro platform was built to be a Cadillac sedan from the start. The Chevy SS wasn't much of a hit. 

 

The Mustang is already kinda porky right now with that platform. Now to make it a competent sports sedan they would need to extend it and make it bigger (more weight/money) or try and lighten it up (even more money). Now most rear wheel drive sedans offer AWD these days. That would add more cost and even more weight. We'll just say a mustang based sports sedan would start at roughly 35 and fully loaded probably around 60. Is there much a market for a Ford sedan at that price?  Possibly, as the Charger sells respectably. Do people want to spend that much money on a  Ford sedan when they can get a Explorer ST in that price range? I don't have the market research to answer that question.

 

What would of made sense was to make it a Lincoln. However, dumping money in developing a 4 door Lincoln sports sedan based off of the Mustang when even luxury sedans were being abandoned for luxury CUV/SUV's might have not sounded like a good idea.

 

 

 

Exactly.  Making a 4 door mustang would involve too many compromises.   Making a clean sheet CD6 4 door sedan, hatchback or wagon would be much better but isn't worth doing if its trying to compete against Charger.   The volumes are too low.   As stated the best case is a Lincoln version that can command $50K+ ATPs with a performance Ford version also with high pricing.  There is no issue with production (unless they have a lot of other things planned for FRAP that we don't know about) - but you still have to compete for product development resources with all of the other new products.   And I bet those other products have a much better ROI.   I'm sure it's still on the project board and if resources free up and other new stuff gets completed it may be resurrected.

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