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Did Ford make a mistake killing its sedans?


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Seriously folks - look at what Ford is doing and tell me when they've ever introduced so many new products in such a short timeframe.

 

previous 24 months:  New Aviator, Explorer, Escape, Corsair, Focus (ROW)

 

next 12 months:   New F150, New Bronco Sport.  New Bronco.  New Mach-E.  New Maverick. New Fusion whatever

 

next 24 months:   New Ranger, 2 new BEV CUVs,  BEV F150 and Transit

 

Not to mention 2 new IC engines (maybe 3 with the Unifor announcement) - SC 5.2L and 7.3L, plus all new hybrids (Aviator GT, Corsair GT, Explorer hybrid, F150 powerboost).

 

For every car you think they should keep, cross of one or two of those new ones.

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47 minutes ago, akirby said:

Seriously folks - look at what Ford is doing and tell me when they've ever introduced so many new products in such a short timeframe.

 

previous 24 months:  New Aviator, Explorer, Escape, Corsair, Focus (ROW)

 

next 12 months:   New F150, New Bronco Sport.  New Bronco.  New Mach-E.  New Maverick. New Fusion whatever

 

next 24 months:   New Ranger, 2 new BEV CUVs,  BEV F150 and Transit

 

Not to mention 2 new IC engines (maybe 3 with the Unifor announcement) - SC 5.2L and 7.3L, plus all new hybrids (Aviator GT, Corsair GT, Explorer hybrid, F150 powerboost).

 

For every car you think they should keep, cross of one or two of those new ones.

 

Ford also launched Puma and new JMC Yuhu and Baodian in the previous 24 months. And gave Yusheng S330 a heavy update and renamed it Territory.

 

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2 hours ago, 351cid said:

The opportunity Ford missed was extending the Mustang chassis to make decent back seat room & pop a new top hat on it. Boom. One offering in the mid size sedan market while utilizing an under utilized plant. Most engineering is already in place. Kind of a reverse of the original Mustang...an economy car developed off the Mustang chassis. As a bonus, the Mustang would be more profitable since increased volume spreads costs. 

It's not that easy, Mustang's rear seats are positioned in between the rear wheels not in front of them.

Also, Mustang's engine setback makes for a different proportions in front which moves the position

of the driver rearwards. Just about everything in the Mustang platform would have to be re-engineered

to make a sedan, not impossible but hard to justify financially, especially if going into a price sensitive

segment.

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1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

Exactly.  Making a 4 door mustang would involve too many compromises.   Making a clean sheet CD6 4 door sedan, hatchback or wagon would be much better but isn't worth doing if its trying to compete against Charger.   The volumes are too low.   As stated the best case is a Lincoln version that can command $50K+ ATPs with a performance Ford version also with high pricing.  There is no issue with production (unless they have a lot of other things planned for FRAP that we don't know about) - but you still have to compete for product development resources with all of the other new products.   And I bet those other products have a much better ROI.   I'm sure it's still on the project board and if resources free up and other new stuff gets completed it may be resurrected.

Absolutely, lots of changes and lots of cost.

The Mustang's rear seats go between the rear wheels not in front of them.

Also, engine set back in Mustang means the driver sits much further rearwards than a sedan driver.

Those two points have been the biggest problem developing a Mustang and a "Falcon" on the one platform.

Not impossible, just hard to justify unless Jim Farley finds a way to make it happen but how many buyers?

 

 

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One more comment and I will leave this subject alone....maybe?

 

Maybe I have my tin foil hat on; but I believe that there is more to this than just changing tastes. I know several people who would like a sedan, but are concerned because manufacturers are dropping them like flys.

 

I wonder if the SUV & Crossover craze is because the manufacturers saw the writing on the wall with fuel economy standards. Ford has a special way of making a model disappear...letting it rot on the vine. If the 2017 Fusion update had been more than just a light & shifter change; then maybe sales wouldn't have gone into the dumps as quickly. 

 

In any event; my belief is that it was a mistake to eliminate all sedans. They should have kept one. I believe it will come back to bite them in the end. 

 

I also wonder how long the Mustang coupe will be around. My money says the coupe will go away before 2028.

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1 hour ago, 351cid said:

One more comment and I will leave this subject alone....maybe?

 

Maybe I have my tin foil hat on; but I believe that there is more to this than just changing tastes. I know several people who would like a sedan, but are concerned because manufacturers are dropping them like flys.

 

I wonder if the SUV & Crossover craze is because the manufacturers saw the writing on the wall with fuel economy standards. Ford has a special way of making a model disappear...letting it rot on the vine. If the 2017 Fusion update had been more than just a light & shifter change; then maybe sales wouldn't have gone into the dumps as quickly. 

 

In any event; my belief is that it was a mistake to eliminate all sedans. They should have kept one. I believe it will come back to bite them in the end. 

 

I also wonder how long the Mustang coupe will be around. My money says the coupe will go away before 2028.


 

Ford could easily sell 200k - 300k sedans between fusion and focus.  That’s completely beside the point.

 

So you think they should keep Fusion sedans and cancel Bronco Sport and Maverick.  Because that’s the business decision.  

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2 hours ago, 351cid said:

One more comment and I will leave this subject alone....maybe?

 

Maybe I have my tin foil hat on; but I believe that there is more to this than just changing tastes. I know several people who would like a sedan, but are concerned because manufacturers are dropping them like flys.

 

I wonder if the SUV & Crossover craze is because the manufacturers saw the writing on the wall with fuel economy standards. Ford has a special way of making a model disappear...letting it rot on the vine. If the 2017 Fusion update had been more than just a light & shifter change; then maybe sales wouldn't have gone into the dumps as quickly. 

 

In any event; my belief is that it was a mistake to eliminate all sedans. They should have kept one. I believe it will come back to bite them in the end. 

 

I also wonder how long the Mustang coupe will be around. My money says the coupe will go away before 2028.

business has to go where the $ are or the company gos under ...even Toyota and Honda are struggling with their Camry and Accord sales...and in all honesty, given the rebates and incentives on Fusion, I truly doubt Fords making diddly squat on those vehicles. Niw. given the market has swung towards more upright Sedfans...ie CUV, that CAN be sold profitably, the business case for the Fusion has become null and void...I don't blame them in the slightest...why continue with a vehicle that REQUIRES heavy subsidy's to remain numerically viable...let alone monetarily.

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3 hours ago, 351cid said:

I believe that there is more to this than just changing tastes.

 

Changing tastes and changing lifestyles... Home Depot and Lowe's along with cable channels like HGTV have greatly enabled DIYS'ers who need to bring home supplies.  Add in the rise of Costco with their "we'll load it but you have to take it home" business model and you can see why traditional three box sedans just don't fit people's needs anymore.  Plus the gaps between sedans and CUVs in ride, handling, comfort, performance, styling, and fuel efficiency are no longer factors.

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39 minutes ago, CoolScoop said:

 

Changing tastes and changing lifestyles... Home Depot and Lowe's along with cable channels like HGTV have greatly enabled DIYS'ers who need to bring home supplies.  Add in the rise of Costco with their "we'll load it but you have to take it home" business model and you can see why traditional three box sedans just don't fit people's needs anymore.  Plus the gaps between sedans and CUVs in ride, handling, comfort, performance, styling, and fuel efficiency are no longer factors.


Not to mention pricing...People keep cars far longer these days and rather have a Swiss Army knife instead of being limited due to form factor of a product. We are more or less back to what we had pre 1950-two box designs. 
 

Back 40 years ago people kept cars not nearly as long (2-4 years), so there was much more turn over in product-look at the rise and fall of vans and personal sport coupes that are nearly non existent today. 

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3 hours ago, Deanh said:

business has to go where the $ are or the company gos under ...even Toyota and Honda are struggling with their Camry and Accord sales...and in all honesty, given the rebates and incentives on Fusion, I truly doubt Fords making diddly squat on those vehicles. Niw. given the market has swung towards more upright Sedfans...ie CUV, that CAN be sold profitably, the business case for the Fusion has become null and void...I don't blame them in the slightest...why continue with a vehicle that REQUIRES heavy subsidy's to remain numerically viable...let alone monetarily.

Are you also ready to ax the Escape? Sales the first two quarters of 2020 are down the same % as Fusion and rebates are slightly higher on the Escape. Plus its built with much more expensive labor. And that’s for a brand new model. 

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4 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

Are you also ready to ax the Escape? Sales the first two quarters of 2020 are down the same % as Fusion and rebates are slightly higher on the Escape. Plus its built with much more expensive labor. And that’s for a brand new model. 

 

2020 isn't a great year to compare actual sales numbers...the Fusion has been loosing sales for the past 3-4 years.

 

The Escape is completely different situtaion

 

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1 minute ago, silvrsvt said:

 

2020 isn't a great year to compare actual sales numbers...the Fusion has been loosing sales for the past 3-4 years.

 

The Escape is completely different situtaion

 

Agreed, the Escape is a completely different situation. But I think you’ll agree with me that its not a good one.

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5 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

Agreed, the Escape is a completely different situation. But I think you’ll agree with me that its not a good one.

 

It "depends". if Ford can sell less Escapes and make a profit on them, its not an issue. The last gen had issues with pricing since the get go (trim levels) and equipment package growth. Last reported quarterly sales numbers where during the height of COVID craziness to. I actually see in my area a ton more of the 2020 Escape then I did at the start of the year. 

Just as an Example-my Wife's 2017 SEL has more options on it then my Parents 2013 Escape Ti, but was about 5K cheaper. The only thing the Ti has over my wife's car is larger rims, and that sucks because 19in wheels are an oddball size and cost an arm and leg. Its bad when you can get an 20" High Performance All Season tire cheaper than a 19 inch standard tire. 

 

This gen seems like a hard reset to fix that...and Escape sales aren't as important because the Bronco Sport will be picking up more customers with hopefully less incentives. 

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5 hours ago, akirby said:


 

Ford could easily sell 200k - 300k sedans between fusion and focus.  That’s completely beside the point.

 

So you think they should keep Fusion sedans and cancel Bronco Sport and Maverick.  Because that’s the business decision.  

In two plus years of selling new Fords, I can honestly say that I’ve probably sold a total of 5 Fusions to customers that actually asked for them. I own a 17 Fusion SE 2.0 Ecoboost and love it. I’ve never been a truck guy but find myself gravitating to them because that’s what sells. I’m super excited for the Bronco Sport and Uber excited about the Maverick! The Bronco Sport will appeal to a wide range of customers and bring back customers that owned the Gen 1 Escape but were turned off by the styling of the Gen 2. As someone that has always loved smaller cars, I can’t wait to see more of the Maverick. A Maverick with the 2.0 EB could bring “fun to drive” to truck market and possibly attract non-Ford buyers. 

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4 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

Agreed, the Escape is a completely different situation. But I think you’ll agree with me that its not a good one.

Last month Ford made over 20,000 of them so for the moment, the situation is not as bad as you think. 
 

.....do you think that the bulk of Escape buyers will migrate to Bronco Sport?

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9 hours ago, mpcmotorsports said:

In two plus years of selling new Fords, I can honestly say that I’ve probably sold a total of 5 Fusions to customers that actually asked for them. I own a 17 Fusion SE 2.0 Ecoboost and love it. I’ve never been a truck guy but find myself gravitating to them because that’s what sells. I’m super excited for the Bronco Sport and Uber excited about the Maverick! The Bronco Sport will appeal to a wide range of customers and bring back customers that owned the Gen 1 Escape but were turned off by the styling of the Gen 2. As someone that has always loved smaller cars, I can’t wait to see more of the Maverick. A Maverick with the 2.0 EB could bring “fun to drive” to truck market and possibly attract non-Ford buyers. 


I agree with you about Maverick. It seems like there's a ton of potential there, especially for the tuner crowd in an AWD guise, kinda like the Falcon Ute was. I wish they would make it RWD biased but beggars can't be choosers I guess. Either way I seriously feel like corporate is underestimating it's potential. I'm excited. 

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11 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

It "depends". if Ford can sell less Escapes and make a profit on them, its not an issue. The last gen had issues with pricing since the get go (trim levels) and equipment package growth. Last reported quarterly sales numbers where during the height of COVID craziness to. I actually see in my area a ton more of the 2020 Escape then I did at the start of the year. 

Just as an Example-my Wife's 2017 SEL has more options on it then my Parents 2013 Escape Ti, but was about 5K cheaper. The only thing the Ti has over my wife's car is larger rims, and that sucks because 19in wheels are an oddball size and cost an arm and leg. Its bad when you can get an 20" High Performance All Season tire cheaper than a 19 inch standard tire. 

 

This gen seems like a hard reset to fix that...and Escape sales aren't as important because the Bronco Sport will be picking up more customers with hopefully less incentives. 

 

Pricing and incentives are still issues with the Escape. I understand the whole profit vs. pricing point but sales in my market are about a third of what they were making it appear that Ford's pricing themselves out of the market and losing volume to the competitors. I could count on one hand the number of new Escape's I've seen on the road. And the only place I've heard negative reviews is online here.

 

Escape sales not being important is just an excuse. The Bronco Sport may be a big success but there's no reason why the Escape couldn't be either. Then they'd be realizing the volume and profit potential on two vehicles instead of just one. 

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12 hours ago, Trader 10 said:

Are you also ready to ax the Escape? Sales the first two quarters of 2020 are down the same % as Fusion and rebates are slightly higher on the Escape. Plus its built with much more expensive labor. And that’s for a brand new model. 

If the Escape fails, then the Sport will fail slso. The Escape is bigger with more cargo space and interior room, cheaper in price, fwd option, greater towing numbers, and with the hybrid twice the fuel efficiency. Only so many people need a rock climber. An AWD Escape will fit most drivers off pavement needs.

 

Since Ford is having trouble making market share and profit numbers with its unibody vehicles, who knows how long Ford can make it the way it is now. Many analysts believe Ford is headed to being a truck/van company only. 

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16 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

Pricing and incentives are still issues with the Escape. I understand the whole profit vs. pricing point but sales in my market are about a third of what they were making it appear that Ford's pricing themselves out of the market and losing volume to the competitors. I could count on one hand the number of new Escape's I've seen on the road. And the only place I've heard negative reviews is online here.

 

Escape sales not being important is just an excuse. The Bronco Sport may be a big success but there's no reason why the Escape couldn't be either. Then they'd be realizing the volume and profit potential on two vehicles instead of just one. 

Yeah, the size of the incentive numbers on the first year Escape are worrisome to say the least. Hopefully Ford has some short term fixes for the 2021 model like appearance packages and upgrades on Titanium interior.

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4 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

Hopefully Ford has some short term fixes for the 2021 model like appearance packages and upgrades on Titanium interior.

 

Yes sir FordBuyer, if the emergency refresh applied to late production 2020 and 2021 Explorer is the norm, it's very likely that 2021 Escape will get something similar. Also, I hope that Ford expands availability of the excellent hybrid powertrain to more trim levels on Escape. Ford seems to be more responsive to feedback from reviewers and customers lately.

 

We'll know for sure when the 2021 Escape order guides come out, ice-capades will of course have those ready for members of the forum as soon as the guides are available. :)

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