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Did Ford make a mistake killing its sedans?


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18 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Please for the love of god stop with this emergency refresh fallacy. IT IS NOT HAPPENING. 

Who is talking about a refresh? For example, Ford just announced a new appearance package for the Ranger XL for $1,000 that includes 

nicer wheels, an 8 inch touchscreen, and a little nicer looking interior touches. Ditto for 2021 Explorer. Ford throws out new appearance packages all the time. 

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44 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

If the Escape fails, then the Sport will fail slso. The Escape is bigger with more cargo space and interior room, cheaper in price, fwd option, greater towing numbers, and with the hybrid twice the fuel efficiency. Only so many people need a rock climber. An AWD Escape will fit most drivers off pavement needs.

 

You are severely underestimating the market for rugged looking vehicles.  Has almost nothing to do with actual capability, just styling and appearance.   It's an emotional purchase not an objective purchase.  And that's exactly why they won't have to offer big discounts to sell them.  Nobody who wants and can afford a Bronco Sport is going to settle for an Escape regardless of price or fuel economy or cargo area.

 

I don't understand why you think everyone shares your vehicle preferences or purchasing objectives.  

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8 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

Who is talking about a refresh? For example, Ford just announced a new appearance package for the Ranger XL for $1,000 that includes 

nicer wheels, an 8 inch touchscreen, and a little nicer looking interior touches. Ditto for 2021 Explorer. Ford throws out new appearance packages all the time. 

 

Rperez keeps saying the Explorer is getting an "emergency refresh" which is hogwash.

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10 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

You are severely underestimating the market for rugged looking vehicles.  Has almost nothing to do with actual capability, just styling and appearance.   It's an emotional purchase not an objective purchase.  And that's exactly why they won't have to offer big discounts to sell them.  Nobody who wants and can afford a Bronco Sport is going to settle for an Escape regardless of price or fuel economy or cargo area.

 

I don't understand why you think everyone shares your vehicle preferences or purchasing objectives.  

Maybe you are correct. And maybe you are wrong. I have my doubts that people are going to pay upward of $40,000+ for a Sport. A Crosstrek Premium can be had under $30,000 and has better AWD system and over 8 inch ground clearance. THe RAV 4 Adventurer is better also. Ford is going to have to offer big incentives on higher trim levels of the Sport IMO.

 

I bought the 2020 Escape for only ONE reason......HYBRID. The Crosstrek plug in sucks in every way. The RAV 4 hybrid has faulty fuel tank. The CRV hybrid gets disappointing fuel mileage. The rest of the Escape lineup is middle of the pack. And the Sport is no better IMO and no hybrid is not good. 

 

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23 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

I bought the 2020 Escape for only ONE reason......HYBRID.

 

Last time I visited Autonation Ford Fort Worth in early September, my salesman said that demand still outstrips supply on the hybrid Escapes, especially SE Sport Hybrid. That's why I mentioned that it would be nice if Ford expands availability of the hybrid for 2021 Escape. The improvement you get with the hybrid not just for fuel economy but also for powertrain smoothness and quietness over the 3-cylinder gasoline engine is huge.

 

Toyota increased production of RAV4 Hybrid shortly after the new 2019 model came out. Just like Escape Hybrid, demand for the Hybrid version of the RAV4 was and continues to be very strong. Same deal for the PHEV RAV4 Prime, there's a pretty long waiting list for that model at dealerships in CARB states. Non-CARB states may not get any RAV4 Primes at all in 2020.

Edited by rperez817
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1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

Maybe you are correct. And maybe you are wrong. I have my doubts that people are going to pay upward of $40,000+ for a Sport. A Crosstrek Premium can be had under $30,000 and has better AWD system and over 8 inch ground clearance. THe RAV 4 Adventurer is better also. Ford is going to have to offer big incentives on higher trim levels of the Sport IMO.

 

I bought the 2020 Escape for only ONE reason......HYBRID. The Crosstrek plug in sucks in every way. The RAV 4 hybrid has faulty fuel tank. The CRV hybrid gets disappointing fuel mileage. The rest of the Escape lineup is middle of the pack. And the Sport is no better IMO and no hybrid is not good. 

 

 

Jeep sells a TON of Renegades, Compasses and Cherokees.    Crosstrek and Rav4 look NOTHING like Bronco Sport.   It's not about paper capabilities.

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I just got my car's routine service done, and the dealer had almost the entire back lot filled with Escapes. There were at least 30. More than the amount of F-150 trucks. There was a row of Fusion hybrids (i'm guessing they bought as many of them as possible because they were the last cars to sell to car guys). Mostly three models dominated the lot (F-150, Escape and Explorer) and there was hardly anything else. The two Expeditions were 75 and 86 thousand dollars (!) and the Ecosport was a mind boggling 30 grand!

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2 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

Jeep sells a TON of Renegades, Compasses and Cherokees.    Crosstrek and Rav4 look NOTHING like Bronco Sport.   It's not about paper capabilities.

And Jeep offers big time rebates on its vehicles like Ford and GM. So doubt if profit margin on Compass, Renegade, and GM Equinox are much to write home about. Meanwhile, Subaru offers no rebate or incentive on Crosstrek and has no or very little inventory most of the time. 

 

I hope you are correct and the high end SPORT sells like hot cakes with little incentives. But I've seen the Bronco Sport at local Ford dealer here in FL that was probably preproduction model and don't see it selling well without big incentives. 

 

Now of course the BOF Bronco is already a  big seller and will sell well with minimal incentives. But that is a different animal. Like comparing a bobcat to a tiger. No comparison.

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6 minutes ago, atomcat68 said:

I just got my car's routine service done, and the dealer had almost the entire back lot filled with Escapes. There were at least 30. More than the amount of F-150 trucks. There was a row of Fusion hybrids (i'm guessing they bought as many of them as possible because they were the last cars to sell to car guys). Mostly three models dominated the lot (F-150, Escape and Explorer) and there was hardly anything else. The two Expeditions were 75 and 86 thousand dollars (!) and the Ecosport was a mind boggling 30 grand!

 

Yes, but Ford's had heavy incentives on the EcoSport's which is making them very attractive price wise. It's a big factor for customers looking at payments considering it's now Ford's entry level vehicle. 

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I have no question the Bronco will be successful and profitable.  I just wonder how many people will be willing to pay over $30,000 for a Bronco Sport. I do look forward to the Maverick and hope there will be a basic version that is non-Eco Boost that will be in the low $20,000 range, especially as a replacement for the EcoSport is uncertain. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, ehaase said:

I have no question the Bronco will be successful and profitable.  I just wonder how many people will be willing to pay over $30,000 for a Bronco Sport. I do look forward to the Maverick and hope there will be a basic version that is non-Eco Boost that will be in the low $20,000 range, especially as a replacement for the EcoSport is uncertain. 

 

You can't compare the Bronco Sport to the Escape or any other vehicle. It's not going to sell on price. Bronco Sport buyers are going to buy first because of the unique look, the Bronco name, etc. It's an impulse decision for many and not because of price. 

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6 minutes ago, ehaase said:

I have no question the Bronco will be successful and profitable.  I just wonder how many people will be willing to pay over $30,000 for a Bronco Sport. I do look forward to the Maverick and hope there will be a basic version that is non-Eco Boost that will be in the low $20,000 range, especially as a replacement for the EcoSport is uncertain. 

 

 

If the Sport has a premium look and feel, I think 30k is no problem, and would probably sell closer to 40k. I think the Escape will suffer in comparison, and people will be squeamish about paying top dollar for that compared to the Bronco sport.

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Just now, atomcat68 said:

If the Sport has a premium look and feel, I think 30k is no problem, and would probably sell closer to 40k. I think the Escape will suffer in comparison, and people will be squeamish about paying top dollar for that compared to the Bronco sport.

 

They're two different vehicles that will appeal to different customer needs, etc.

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2 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

Maybe you are correct. And maybe you are wrong. I have my doubts that people are going to pay upward of $40,000+ for a Sport. A Crosstrek Premium can be had under $30,000 and has better AWD system and over 8 inch ground clearance. THe RAV 4 Adventurer is better also. Ford is going to have to offer big incentives on higher trim levels of the Sport IMO.

 

I bought the 2020 Escape for only ONE reason......HYBRID. The Crosstrek plug in sucks in every way. The RAV 4 hybrid has faulty fuel tank. The CRV hybrid gets disappointing fuel mileage. The rest of the Escape lineup is middle of the pack. And the Sport is no better IMO and no hybrid is not good. 

 

 

A lot of folks bring up the Crosstrek as the segment price leader that gives you so much value. However, everyone forgets to mention the Crosstrek's fatal flaw. It is severely under powered. 152HP 4 with CVT is a trash drivetrain. FFS, the since put to rest Focus 2.0 (NA) had more power. Now they do have an OPTIONAL engine with a whopping 182hp on the Sport and Limited models which start at roughly 27k. They have no engine to even come remotely close to the 2.0 in the soon to be Sport. Hell, their optional engine has a 1hp advantage and a 14lb/ft deficit over the base Escape/Sport engine. 

 

For me, I have no interest loading up my gear and adding 1-2 people in Crosstrek. I don't want to drive a time machine from the early 90's performance wise. 

Edited by jcartwright99
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4 minutes ago, atomcat68 said:

If the Sport has a premium look and feel, I think 30k is no problem, and would probably sell closer to 40k. I think the Escape will suffer in comparison, and people will be squeamish about paying top dollar for that compared to the Bronco sport.

First off, people are not paying top dollar for Escape. You can get the SE for low $20's and the titanium for about $30,000 after the big incentives. 

 

I've seen the Sport in person and I didn't see the premium look over the Escape. A different look to be sure, and I agree the rugged look Is in vogue, but I don't agree that buyers will pay the premium price to get one. Big incentives for the Sport. Very little incentives for the BOF Bronco and big profit margin. 

 

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10 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

You can get the SE for low $20's and the titanium for about $30,000 after the big incentives

The only Escape retail incentives in my region are 0%/60 plus $1000 trade assist or $2750 cash back plus $1000 trade assist... the 0%/72 offer is over.

Edited by CoolScoop
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4 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

Pricing and incentives are still issues with the Escape. I understand the whole profit vs. pricing point but sales in my market are about a third of what they were making it appear that Ford's pricing themselves out of the market and losing volume to the competitors. I could count on one hand the number of new Escape's I've seen on the road. And the only place I've heard negative reviews is online here.

 

Escape sales not being important is just an excuse. The Bronco Sport may be a big success but there's no reason why the Escape couldn't be either. Then they'd be realizing the volume and profit potential on two vehicles instead of just one. 

Ill come right out and say it...Escapes diamond is the hybrid and plug ins...take those out of the mix I believe the Sport will outsell the Escape....

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5 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Ill come right out and say it...Escapes diamond is the hybrid and plug ins...take those out of the mix I believe the Sport will outsell the Escape....

 

Absolutely! The problem is getting the SE Sport Hybrid that Ford treats as a commodity issue and makes difficult if not impossible to get scheduled.

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22 minutes ago, CoolScoop said:

The only Escape retail incentives in my region are 0%/60 plus $1000 trade assist or $2750 cash back plus $1000 trade assist... the 0%/72 offer is over.

 

I just looked up on Ford's website and in my area its a lease deal for $189 a month with $3700 down payment for 24 months or 0% at 60months plus 2K trade assist or $2750 Cash back plus 2K trade assist. Nothing outrageous, because the the financing and cash back deals are about the same end result for money that needs to be put out, just done differently. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Ill come right out and say it...Escapes diamond is the hybrid and plug ins...take those out of the mix I believe the Sport will outsell the Escape....

 

8 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

Absolutely! The problem is getting the SE Sport Hybrid that Ford treats as a commodity issue and makes difficult if not impossible to get scheduled.

 

I'm not sure if Ford is going let that happen...the Bronco Sport is limited to about 100K units a year out the gate...the Escape sells double that. Hopefully Ford can make more Hybrids once the Fusion production winds down. Overall its the best value for the Escape. 

 

Ford will limit production on the BS because of capacity issues at Hemosillo once it gets all of its different products started there. That will also limit the amount of incentives they'll need to add on the BS also, if the demand is good. 

Edited by silvrsvt
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I was just looking at Ecosport Pricing locally-I think the thing Ford is doing is "overcharging" on sticker price and making the difference up with incentives...when in actuality, the Ecosport doesn't cost all that much more then a Fiesta/Focus would cost to build for them and they still make a profit off it.
 

Lets put it this way-a Ecosport SES (one of the the top trims) is $29K but saw it locally listed for $22K

 

Contrast that with a Focus, that started at $17,950, but often sold for less then $20K after incentives and with the Fiesta, which was $14,260 - $21,340 before incentives. 

Ford basically shifted its low end of the market up by $5K and is selling hopefully a more profitable vehicle in doing so. 

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13 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

I just looked up on Ford's website and in my area its a lease deal for $189 a month with $3700 down payment for 24 months or 0% at 60months plus 2K trade assist or $2750 Cash back plus 2K trade assist. Nothing outrageous, because the the financing and cash back deals are about the same end result for money that needs to be put out, just done differently. 

 

I'm not sure if Ford is going let that happen...the Bronco Sport is limited to about 100K units a year out the gate...the Escape sells double that. Hopefully Ford can make more Hybrids once the Fusion production winds down. Overall its the best value for the Escape. 

 

Ford will limit production on the BS because of capacity issues at Hemosillo once it gets all of its different products started there. That will also limit the amount of incentives they'll need to add on the BS also, if the demand is good. 

 

The problem with the lease payments is that what Ford can advertise doesn't reflect what's required in certain states. In CT, the Ford leases are required to include the property taxes which can bump the payments a lot. So what you might see advertised in many markets doesn't reflect what the actual costs or payments are. 

 

Why is Bronco Sport production limited to only 100K units? Ford's spending all this money to retool a plant to produce a vehicle that is getting so much interest and reservations and production will be limited? Doesn't make sense. What are the capacity issues? 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

I think the thing Ford is doing is "overcharging" on sticker price and making the difference up with incentives

 

Yes sir, that's the traditional Ford strategy. Not a good one though IMO. It leads to depressed residual values and emphasizes the "deal" rather than product excellence or customer satisfaction.

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26 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

Why is Bronco Sport production limited to only 100K units? Ford's spending all this money to retool a plant to produce a vehicle that is getting so much interest and reservations and production will be limited? Doesn't make sense. What are the capacity issues? 

 

 


The Bronco Sport is going to compete against the Transit Connect, Maverick and Fusion “Subaru fighter” for production space at Hermosillo. 
 

They might be able to eek out an extra 20-40k units, but if the Maverick takes off, that might be an issue. 
 

IMO The weakest of them all will be the Fusion, I think it will be lucky to break 80k units a year. 

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