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Did Ford make a mistake killing its sedans?

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I don't know if helping Tundra is possible.

It's hard being fifth in the sales race when there's four prominent truck brands in front of you.

Maybe that and the having such strong sales of mid sized Tacoma play against the Tundra

ever being more than its current sales level. Toyota had high hopes for it but the reality is

that large trurck buyers tend to be tribal and support their favorites local American brands.

 

On VW cars,

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Arteon?

It looks OK and about the right size for a Fusion replacement.

Edited by jpd80

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

I don't know if helping Tundra is possible.

It's hard being fifth in the sales race when there's four prominent truck brands in front of you.

Maybe that and the having such strong sales of mid sized Tacoma play against the Tundra

ever being more than its current sales level. Toyota had high hopes for it but the reality is

that large trurck buyers tend to be tribal and support their favorites local American brands.

 

On VW cars,

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Arteon?

It looks OK and about the right size for a Fusion replacement.

 

I think I've seen about 3 on the road since its debut.

 

Looks wise, it's pretty good, but definitely not a big seller.

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16 hours ago, AGR said:

 

Maybe VW is worth a try, but Toyota, no effen way! Toyota makes boring ass appliances. They suck so bad at building fun to drive cars that they have to outsource the design of their sports cars!

Are you saying the Supra is shared/outsourced vehicle?  I hadn't heard about that.

CR-Cars-InlineHero-Toyota-Supra-Z4-5-19.

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2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I don't know if helping Tundra is possible.

It's hard being fifth in the sales race when there's four prominent truck brands in front of you.

Maybe that and the having such strong sales of mid sized Tacoma play against the Tundra

ever being more than its current sales level. Toyota had high hopes for it but the reality is

that large trurck buyers tend to be tribal and support their favorites local American brands.

 

On VW cars,

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Arteon?

It looks OK and about the right size for a Fusion replacement.

Are they hurting with the Tundra? It seems to have a loyal, if not large following. Being made in Texas certainly helps.

Edited by probowler

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1 hour ago, probowler said:

Are you saying the Supra is shared/outsourced vehicle?  I hadn't heard about that.
 


Supra is based on the BMW Z4, uses bmw engines and is built in the bmw plant in Austria.
 

FT86 uses Subaru engines and platform and is built in a Subaru plant.

 

Both are joint designs and have some differences but Toyota did none of the heavy lifting.

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1 hour ago, probowler said:

Are you saying the Supra is shared/outsourced vehicle?  I hadn't heard about that.

CR-Cars-InlineHero-Toyota-Supra-Z4-5-19.

 

Yeah its the same platform as the BMW behind it and IMO it met with a thud with its intended market-I've seen advertised incentives on them already.

 

The older Fast and Furious fans (people my age mid 40s+) who can afford them wanted some more like the Supra from the 1990s, not a BMW knock off that makes 382HP for a starting price of $51K isn't getting much takers.

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3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I don't know if helping Tundra is possible.

It's hard being fifth in the sales race when there's four prominent truck brands in front of you.

Maybe that and the having such strong sales of mid sized Tacoma play against the Tundra

ever being more than its current sales level. Toyota had high hopes for it but the reality is

that large trurck buyers tend to be tribal and support their favorites local American brands.

 

On VW cars,

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Arteon?

It looks OK and about the right size for a Fusion replacement.

 

Toyota and Ford did work together on hybrid system for Tundra and F-150 for a while before Ford kicked them to the curb, siting difference of objectives. 

 

VW can't give away Arteon in the US, it would be crazy for Ford to want to have anything to do with it. The midsize sedan market in the US has reached an equilibrium like the C-segment cars in Europe... after subtracting Ford's volume (since Ford already announced they are out), there are 4 players here with more than 20% market share which is the minimum to continue to slug it out:

1. Toyota (plus affiliated Subaru and Mazda = juggernaut status)

2. Honda 

3. Hyundai (you have to combine Sonata and Optima volume)

4. Nissan (rental fleet champ)

 

Everyone else has bailed out or will have to eventually, in order of withdraw - Mitsubishi, FCA, Ford, GM, VW. 

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12 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Yeah its the same platform as the BMW behind it and IMO it met with a thud with its intended market-I've seen advertised incentives on them already.

 

The older Fast and Furious fans (people my age mid 40s+) who can afford them wanted some more like the Supra from the 1990s, not a BMW knock off that makes 382HP for a starting price of $51K isn't getting much takers.


The new Supra is a giant dud. Giant lesson on how NOT to revive a legendary name. 

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2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Yeah its the same platform as the BMW behind it and IMO it met with a thud with its intended market-I've seen advertised incentives on them already.

 

The older Fast and Furious fans (people my age mid 40s+) who can afford them wanted some more like the Supra from the 1990s, not a BMW knock off that makes 382HP for a starting price of $51K isn't getting much takers.

 

Well this middle age guy would take the BMW, every time.

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

Toyota and Ford did work together on hybrid system for Tundra and F-150 for a while before Ford kicked them to the curb, siting difference of objectives. 

 

VW can't give away Arteon in the US, it would be crazy for Ford to want to have anything to do with it. The midsize sedan market in the US has reached an equilibrium like the C-segment cars in Europe... after subtracting Ford's volume (since Ford already announced they are out), there are 4 players here with more than 20% market share which is the minimum to continue to slug it out:

1. Toyota (plus affiliated Subaru and Mazda = juggernaut status)

2. Honda 

3. Hyundai (you have to combine Sonata and Optima volume)

4. Nissan (rental fleet champ)

 

Everyone else has bailed out or will have to eventually, in order of withdraw - Mitsubishi, FCA, Ford, GM, VW. 

 

In the near future, the Mazda 6 will become a RWD sports sedan. It will have an I6 as an option.

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1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


The new Supra is a giant dud. Giant lesson on how NOT to revive a legendary name. 

2 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Toyota and Ford did work together on hybrid system for Tundra and F-150 for a while before Ford kicked them to the curb, siting difference of objectives. 

 

VW can't give away Arteon in the US, it would be crazy for Ford to want to have anything to do with it. The midsize sedan market in the US has reached an equilibrium like the C-segment cars in Europe... after subtracting Ford's volume (since Ford already announced they are out), there are 4 players here with more than 20% market share which is the minimum to continue to slug it out:

1. Toyota (plus affiliated Subaru and Mazda = juggernaut status)

2. Honda 

3. Hyundai (you have to combine Sonata and Optima volume)

4. Nissan (rental fleet champ)

 

Everyone else has bailed out or will have to eventually, in order of withdraw - Mitsubishi, FCA, Ford, GM, VW. 

The conversation is being pushed that everyone will drop cars as vindication of

Ford and GM's withdrawl but already, GM looks to be back thanks an alliance with Honda.

I just think that outsourcing a sedan is a good way of staying in the game with controlled costs.

Edited by jpd80

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7 hours ago, jpd80 said:

On VW cars,

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Arteon?

It looks OK and about the right size for a Fusion replacement.


If Ford couldn’t make enough selling the fusion built in their own plant in Mexico how do you think they’d make enough selling a rebadged VW? VW isn’t going to sell them to Ford at a loss. 

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33 minutes ago, sullynd said:


If Ford couldn’t make enough selling the fusion built in their own plant in Mexico how do you think they’d make enough selling a rebadged VW? VW isn’t going to sell them to Ford at a loss. 

Maybe VW would consider it like a massive fleet deal with discount, the same way that Ford will be  selling Transits to them?

It's interesting that GM is doing similar with its Honda alliance.

 

And the reason Ford couldn't make money off Fusion was because it lost all its Titanium sales, at its peak, they were over 20%.

Edited by jpd80

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7 hours ago, akirby said:


Supra is based on the BMW Z4, uses bmw engines and is built in the bmw plant in Austria.
 

FT86 uses Subaru engines and platform and is built in a Subaru plant.

 

Both are joint designs and have some differences but Toyota did none of the heavy lifting.

 

7 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Yeah its the same platform as the BMW behind it and IMO it met with a thud with its intended market-I've seen advertised incentives on them already.

 

The older Fast and Furious fans (people my age mid 40s+) who can afford them wanted some more like the Supra from the 1990s, not a BMW knock off that makes 382HP for a starting price of $51K isn't getting much takers.


Wow, that is disappointing. I never was into tuners but the Supra was just one of those big names everyones heard about.

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17 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


The new Supra is a giant dud. Giant lesson on how NOT to revive a legendary name. 

 

Being ugly as a mud fence is not a big selling point, either.

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16 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe VW would consider it like a massive fleet deal with discount, the same way that Ford will be  selling Transits to them?

It's interesting that GM is doing similar with its Honda alliance.

 

And the reason Ford couldn't make money off Fusion was because it lost all its Titanium sales, at its peak, they were over 20%.

 

I personally don't see VW as the right partner for sedans.

 

2 hours ago, brucelinc said:

 

Being ugly as a mud fence is not a big selling point, either.

 

Yeah, it's bad IMO.  I've seen a few in person and it has a lot of strange surfaces a ton of fake plastic panels and "vents" that are nothing but plastic covers that do nothing (biggest offender is that piece on the doors).  The concept of it they had was better because it was a larger vehicle with better proportions, but they took those looks and slapped them on a smaller vehicle and it just doesn't look good at all, to me.

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On 9/12/2020 at 4:28 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

Yeah its the same platform as the BMW behind it and IMO it met with a thud with its intended market-I've seen advertised incentives on them already.

 

The older Fast and Furious fans (people my age mid 40s+) who can afford them wanted some more like the Supra from the 1990s, not a BMW knock off that makes 382HP for a starting price of $51K isn't getting much takers.

I just don't know why the Toyota 86 wasn't a Celica and given a 350hp turbo motor as an option from the start. That would have fit the bill.

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36 minutes ago, atomcat68 said:

I just don't know why the Toyota 86 wasn't a Celica and given a 350hp turbo motor as an option from the start. That would have fit the bill.

Puzzling why Subaru-Toyota JV dtidn't man up with the WRX turbo boxer engine.

Edited by jpd80

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Puzzling why Subaru-Toyota JV dtidn't man up with the WRX turbo boxer engine.


That's not an engine known for its reliability. Toyota wouldn't want any part of that because of their reputation for quality. 

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On 9/12/2020 at 6:35 PM, jpd80 said:

The conversation is being pushed that everyone will drop cars as vindication of

Ford and GM's withdrawl but already, GM looks to be back thanks an alliance with Honda.

I just think that outsourcing a sedan is a good way of staying in the game with controlled costs.

 

I would guess that if GM wants anything from Honda, it's more likely a version of the CR-V or HR-V. Are Chevy dealers really that eager for a Cruze replacement? 

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11 minutes ago, grbeck said:

 

I would guess that if GM wants anything from Honda, it's more likely a version of the CR-V or HR-V. Are Chevy dealers really that eager for a Cruze replacement? 

 

It's too early to guess what GM may want from Honda. Clearly there is no need for a Chevy sedan in the US market but GM has its own CUVs and doesn't really need help from Honda on that front. Maybe a replacement for Buick Lacrosse... it's the last non-Cadillac sedan that GM is selling in the US. Would have guess they eventually import the replacement from China but if Honda is willing to rebadge the Accord then this is the only one that makes sense since Accord sales are falling pretty rapidly. 

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4 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

It's too early to guess what GM may want from Honda. Clearly there is no need for a Chevy sedan in the US market but GM has its own CUVs and doesn't really need help from Honda on that front. Maybe a replacement for Buick Lacrosse... it's the last non-Cadillac sedan that GM is selling in the US. Would have guess they eventually import the replacement from China but if Honda is willing to rebadge the Accord then this is the only one that makes sense since Accord sales are falling pretty rapidly. 

Chevy still sells the Malibu.

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8 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

Chevy still sells the Malibu.

Yeah, exactly when did GM end the Malibu and all Cadillac sedans?And when did FCA end the Charger and the 300?

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33 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

Chevy still sells the Malibu.

 

22 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

Yeah, exactly when did GM end the Malibu and all Cadillac sedans?And when did FCA end the Charger and the 300?

 

Malibu is done 2024 according to reports

 

https://www.guideautoweb.com/en/articles/51917/chevrolet-malibu-production-to-end-in-2024/

 

The Charger and 300 are basically the Crown Vic of their age. They are riding around on 15 year old platforms and I'm assuming anything not Ram or Jeep related is under review with the merger with Peugeot and FCA

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6 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


That's not an engine known for its reliability. Toyota wouldn't want any part of that because of their reputation for quality. 

None of that was known back in 2012 when the 86 was first sold, maybe a bullet dodged.

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