Trader 10 Posted September 14, 2020 Share Posted September 14, 2020 On 9/8/2020 at 7:40 AM, silvrsvt said: They had THREE products that are competing in a market that makes up only 30% of the total market. While the Fusion was good car, the thing about it is that the higher end models were not moving because people who had the $ buy them wanted a CUV instead. The thing people fail to realize that cars have a fixed break even point that when it comes to sedans doesn't allow for much wiggle room. Look at this way-Ford had three models: Fiesta: started at $15K Focus: Started ~$17K Fusion: Started $22K Thats all before incentives also. Look at the price ranges of the replacements for them: Ecosport (Focus) $19995 Escape (Fusion)$24885 Bronco Sport (additional model-Fusion)$26660 There is alot more wiggle room for incentives, not to mention smaller/cheaper platforms are being used as replacements (i.e. C class CUV is rough replacement for the midsized Sedan in the marketplace in sales) which allows for more profit. Not even factoring in the Edge, which has almost a $10K higher starting price then a Fusion...and the Explorer starts at $11K higher, but the vast majority of the models on the lot are most likely in the $40-50K range for an "average" XLT model. I'm going to assume the Fusion CUV/wagon is going to be in the $28-30K range to start with and top out at $50K for those who want it...the current Fusion Sedan Hybrid is right at that range. Your comparisons are a bit oranges/apples. Next generation models almost always are priced higher than outgoing models. Look at the new Escape and Explorer prices. The current Fusion starts at $23170. The long in the tooth Fusion and new Escape have similar rebates. Doesn’t look like it will happen, but if Ford would bring out a new Fusion sedan, it too would be on the “cheaper” C2 platform and would probably start above the Escape. Bronco Sport prices are similar to the Escape when you add AWD. I think the biggest reason the higher end Fusion models weren’t moving was because Ford hadn’t properly updated the car to keep up with competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 14, 2020 Share Posted September 14, 2020 3 hours ago, jpd80 said: None of that was known back in 2012 when the 86 was first sold, maybe a bullet dodged. Subaru Boxer engines have been plagued with oil leak issues for ages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 15 hours ago, jpd80 said: Puzzling why Subaru-Toyota JV dtidn't man up with the WRX turbo boxer engine. For the turbocharged FA20F engine in WRX and FA24F engine in Ascent, Legacy Turbo, and Outback Turbo, Subaru wanted to use its own gasoline direct injection system to achieve performance and cost targets. The normally aspirated FA20 engine in BRZ/Toyota 86 uses Toyota's more complex D4-S port + direct injection system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushwhacker1 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 (edited) I already have a new F-150 coming. And I have a 2014 Fusion. I don't need two trucks. I am just a stubborn !@#$%^& that wants a North American built vehicle. Yes I know that Toyota and Honda have NA assembly plants. Maybe I can find a low mileage 2020 Fusion or Taurus in a few years. It seems to me that when you abandon a significant portion of the market you are a niche marketer, no longer a major player. I think this is a mistake. When Ford bought Aston Martin, that was a mistake in the other direction. Stay true to your roots. Henry had the right idea with the model T. Edited September 20, 2020 by Bill Elliott more to say 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 Because selling a million trucks a year is niche GTFO with that ridiculousness 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Bill Elliott said: I already have a new F-150 coming. And I have a 2014 Fusion. I don't need two trucks. I am just a stubborn !@#$%^& that wants a North American built vehicle. Yes I know that Toyota and Honda have NA assembly plants. Maybe I can find a low mileage 2020 Fusion or Taurus in a few years. It seems to me that when you abandon a significant portion of the market you are a niche marketer, no longer a major player. I think this is a mistake. Except what they are abandoning is becoming the niche market. Sedans won't go away but 9/10 times people will buy a CUV for similar money versus a sedan. I don't fault Ford for going where the money is at. Go look at Toyota with the Camry and then look at their sales of RAV-4 year over year. There is your answer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 21 minutes ago, Bill Elliott said: I already have a new F-150 coming. And I have a 2014 Fusion. I don't need two trucks. I am just a stubborn !@#$%^& that wants a North American built vehicle. Yes I know that Toyota and Honda have NA assembly plants. Maybe I can find a low mileage 2020 Fusion or Taurus in a few years. It seems to me that when you abandon a significant portion of the market you are a niche marketer, no longer a major player. I think this is a mistake. When Ford bought Aston Martin, that was a mistake in the other direction. Stay true to your roots. Henry had the right idea with the model T. Kia/Hyundai/Honda doesn’t sell Vans or BOF trucks. Are they niche players? Ford will actually have more vehicles in 3 years than they had 5 years ago. Just because they’re not in every possible market doesn’t mean they’re a niche player. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Bill Elliott said: Maybe I can find a low mileage 2020 Fusion or Taurus in a few years. Used 2019 or 2020 Fusion Hybrid is a great used car bargain. It's the best sedan overall Ford ever built. Thanks to the traditionally low resale values for Ford sedans, you can get one in a couple years for under $17k. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 On 9/14/2020 at 7:00 PM, fuzzymoomoo said: Subaru Boxer engines have been plagued with oil leak issues for ages Notorious for head gasket problems at about 70,000 miles and $3,000 repair. CVT problems also that Subaru is extending warranties on. I had an extended warranty on my Crosstrek given to me by Subaru. Never had oil leak problems though on Subaru or Porsche Boxer engines owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 3 hours ago, rperez817 said: Used 2019 or 2020 Fusion Hybrid is a great used car bargain. It's the best sedan overall Ford ever built. Thanks to the traditionally low resale values for Ford sedans, you can get one in a couple years for under $17k. Fabulous deals on lightly used Fusions out there. Even from dealers let alone private sellers. Add in hybrids and plug-ins and hard to ignore. Guess resale values were really destroyed after Ford announced their shocking decision to end all sedans. Good for those in the market now but terrible for those who bought and not leased a new Fusion a couple years ago. Ford threw them under the bus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 Those of us abandoned by Ford will go else where. Ford will sell their trucks & SUVs. If quality isn't stepped up, that SUV market will walk away from Ford. If this happens, Ford will only sell trucks. I, for one, am abandoning Ford trucks...as I'm sure quite a few others will as well. The younger generations don't have loyalty that us older guys do; but we are the ones with the money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 (edited) 57 minutes ago, 351cid said: Those of us abandoned by Ford will go else where. Ford will sell their trucks & SUVs. If quality isn't stepped up, that SUV market will walk away from Ford. If this happens, Ford will only sell trucks. I, for one, am abandoning Ford trucks...as I'm sure quite a few others will as well. The younger generations don't have loyalty that us older guys do; but we are the ones with the money... Look in the phone book and find the nearest Buick dealership. Pull out your road atlas and map it out. I’m sure they will take your money. edited: I’m laughing now as Buick only has the Regal and the rest are CUVs. Hope you wanted a Regal. Edited September 20, 2020 by jcartwright99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said: edited: I’m laughing now as Buick only has the Regal and the rest are CUVs. Hope you wanted a Regal. This is also the last model year for the Regal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 8 hours ago, rperez817 said: Used 2019 or 2020 Fusion Hybrid is a great used car bargain. It's the best sedan overall Ford ever built. Thanks to the traditionally low resale values for Ford sedans, you can get one in a couple years for under $17k. Couple years? You can get 2019 Titanium hybrids for 19K now, SE’s can be had in the 14-15k range. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 1 hour ago, 351cid said: Those of us abandoned by Ford will go else where. Ford will sell their trucks & SUVs. If quality isn't stepped up, that SUV market will walk away from Ford. If this happens, Ford will only sell trucks. I, for one, am abandoning Ford trucks...as I'm sure quite a few others will as well. The younger generations don't have loyalty that us older guys do; but we are the ones with the money... With Bronco, new Ranger, Bronco Sport, Maverick, Mach-E and BEV F150 and Transit there will be plenty of NEW buyers flocking to Ford. Were Windstar/Freestar buyers this butthurt when Ford stopped selling them? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 28 minutes ago, akirby said: Were Windstar/Freestar buyers this butthurt when Ford stopped selling them? It’s a societal issue. Same thing is true in politics. Panther Mafia. People opposed to four door charger and wrangler. People up in arms over the Mustang Mach-E. I’ll be replacing our Flex this year. It’s been the best car I’ve owned. I would LOVE to be able to buy an all new Flex. I fully understand why there isn’t one. I’m not going to storm off and curse Ford for not building a new one. I ordered a MME instead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 Fords interiors are subpar compared to the competition...single cab f350 shortbed with lariet trim would be nice...ford has left the youth..old mans car company as of now... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 The people pissed about MME are just pissed about the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 (edited) 52 minutes ago, sullynd said: I ordered a MME instead. Good choice sullynd sir! What trim level did you order? My wife and I ordered a First Edition in Grabber Blue, she loves that color. 32 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: The people pissed about MME are just pissed about the name. Yes sir fuzzymoomoo. Ford shouldn't pay any attention to those people. Customers and prospects who actually order a Mustang Mach E appreciate the fact that Ford is willing to try new things with this product, including making it the first production Mustang in history with 4 doors (actually 5) from the factory. Edited September 21, 2020 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 2 hours ago, snooter said: Fords interiors are subpar compared to the competition...single cab f350 shortbed with lariet trim would be nice...ford has left the youth..old mans car company as of now... Youth can’t afford a new F350 of any kind. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 40 minutes ago, akirby said: Youth can’t afford a new F350 of any kind. I doubt he can with grammar like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 7 hours ago, rperez817 said: .. Ford is willing to try new things with this product, including making it the first production Mustang in history with 4 doors (actually 5) from the factory. So, by that metric, Ford has always tried new things, like when the redesigned Mustang debuted in 1979 on the then new Fox chassis as coupe and a hatchback (aka: 3 doors) from the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 9 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: The people pissed about MME are just pissed about the name. Yes, but there are people who say “I’ll never buy another Mustang because of it”. Really!? It’s not like they cancelled the coupe. What will they buy? The porker challenger? The dead man walking Camaro? The Internet. Panther Wrangler Charger Mustang Fusion If someone wants to punish themselves with a Camry because Ford killed the Fusion, so be it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 8 hours ago, rperez817 said: Good choice sullynd sir! What trim level did you order? My wife and I ordered a First Edition in Grabber Blue, she loves that color. My original (Day 1) reservation was Premium Star White Standard Range AWD. When I placed the order I switched to Premium Rapid Red Extended Range AWD. It’ll be my first non gray/white car. (Not counting the hand-me-down tan 91 Explorer). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 2 hours ago, twintornados said: So, by that metric, Ford has always tried new things, like when the redesigned Mustang debuted in 1979 on the then new Fox chassis as coupe and a hatchback (aka: 3 doors) from the factory. The Mustang II also was available as a coupe or hatchback. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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