Did Ford make a mistake killing its sedans?

[twintornados]

16 minutes ago, atomcat68 said:

The Mustang II also was available as a coupe or hatchback.

 

How true, but the purists don't count that one either....but, you are indeed correct.

[351cid]

On 9/20/2020 at 7:57 PM, jcartwright99 said:

 
Look in the phone book and find the nearest Buick dealership. Pull out your road atlas and map it out. I’m sure they will take your money.

 

edited: I’m laughing now as Buick only has the Regal and the rest are CUVs. Hope you wanted a Regal.

Regardless of how much the fanbois tell me that I'm an idiot; the fact remains that a large percentage feel the same as I do. 

 

Asians seem to be able to make quality sedans at a profit. Quite a selection too...and Hyundai gives you a 100k mile warranty. Looks like we'll be moving that direction with the Fusion's replacement. 

 

Sound familiar? Think 1980's

[fuzzymoomoo]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out 

[351cid]

20 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Don't let the door hit you on the way out 

It didn't. 

 

This is the same arrogance that put Detroit where it is now.

[rmc523]

38 minutes ago, 351cid said:

Regardless of how much the fanbois tell me that I'm an idiot; the fact remains that a large percentage feel the same as I do. 

 

Asians seem to be able to make quality sedans at a profit. Quite a selection too...and Hyundai gives you a 100k mile warranty. Looks like we'll be moving that direction with the Fusion's replacement. 

 

Sound familiar? Think 1980's

 

That's all they have, though, so they have to put extra resources into them.

 

And that doesn't even get into the economic advantages the foreign companies have with their governments.

 

 

And I do agree, it'd be nice for Ford to have retained a sedan or maybe 2 (Focus and Fusion would've been fine in my book, with Fiesta and Taurus sticking to Europe and China, respectively), I realize why they're in the position they're in.

 

Longer term, we know the "white space" Fusion replacement is coming - I honestly think it'll look pretty similar to what we have now, but more liftback style.

Edited September 22, 2020 by rmc523

[rperez817]

36 minutes ago, 351cid said:

Asians seem to be able to make quality sedans at a profit.

 

The Asian companies who successfully do that such as Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai take a long term approach to maintaining high levels of customer satisfaction, product and corporate reputation, and manufacturing efficiency with their sedans. This contrasts sharply to their competitors, including a couple Asian ones, who gave up on sedans.

[akirby]

56 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

The Asian companies who successfully do that such as Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai take a long term approach to maintaining high levels of customer satisfaction, product and corporate reputation, and manufacturing efficiency with their sedans. This contrasts sharply to their competitors, including a couple Asian ones, who gave up on sedans.

And of those 3 only Toyota sells BOF trucks and utilities and none sell commercial vans.  I don’t believe any of them have as many hybrids, phevs and BEVs as Ford.  And they sell a lot more cars in Europe and Asia than Ford does so they have higher volumes.
 

The simple fact is Ford has more vehicles here and in the pipeline than they’ve ever had including some totally new segments.   Some people just can’t separate their personal desires from good business decisions.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, 351cid said:

Regardless of how much the fanbois tell me that I'm an idiot; the fact remains that a large percentage feel the same as I do. 

 

Asians seem to be able to make quality sedans at a profit. Quite a selection too...and Hyundai gives you a 100k mile warranty. Looks like we'll be moving that direction with the Fusion's replacement. 

Nobody called you an idiot for liking sedans.  There is nothing wrong with liking sedans or with being disappointed that they are discontinued.  What is ridiculous is your insistence that Ford is making a bad business decision while completely ignoring all the facts to the contrary.

 

There is no comparison to the 80s.  C2 platform already has a new Focus in Europe that could easily be brought back here and the new Fusion wagon is also on C2 so a sedan would be easy.  Today the most popular utilities are based on car platforms that support both.  So does CD6.  

[AGR]

...and some people just parrot the company line.

[rperez817]

21 minutes ago, akirby said:

I don’t believe any of them have as many hybrids, phevs and BEVs as Ford. 

 

In the U.S. market Toyota offers by far the most hybrid (non-plug in) models of any automaker with 13. Most Toyota and Lexus sedans have a hybrid variant. Also 2 PHEV models. But hybrids including PHEV are a dead end technology. Toyota biggest weakness currently is its lack of BEV for the U.S. market, along with their fixation on developing hydrogen fuel cell (fool cell) passenger cars.

 

Honda is also strong in hybrids including PHEV but like Toyota is currently lacking with BEV. They cancelled Clarity EV earlier this year. However, Honda's partnership with General Motors should allow them to catch up in the BEV market. Hyundai has a more balanced product lineup that includes hybrid (non-plug in), PHEV, and BEV.

 

For Ford, sedans may make a comeback when the company's vehicle lineup transitions to mostly BEV. Ford can start fresh at that point and hopefully avoid the mistakes that led to the cancellation of their ICE powered sedans.

[akirby]

36 minutes ago, AGR said:

...and some people just parrot the company line.

No company line, just basic common sense and a simple analysis of the facts.

 

FACTS

sedan market is overcrowded with good entries and low end price wars and it’s shrinking

higher end sedan buyers have moved to crossovers where they perceive more value resulting in low ATPs and low profit margins. 

 

Ford has a fixed amount of capital, people and other resources.  Developing 8 brand new vehicles while maintaining all the current vehicles and keeping them fresh and building new factories is not possible.  Something had to go and cars are the least profitable for the reasons mentioned above.

 

Its really simple - keep Fusion and Focus and watch sales drop and profit plunge or replace them with Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport and Maverick.

 

Facts, not company lines.

[akirby]

29 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

In the U.S. market Toyota offers by far the most hybrid (non-plug in) models of any automaker with 13. Most Toyota and Lexus sedans have a hybrid variant. Also 2 PHEV models. But hybrids including PHEV are a dead end technology. Toyota biggest weakness currently is its lack of BEV for the U.S. market, along with their fixation on developing hydrogen fuel cell (fool cell) passenger cars.

 

Honda is also strong in hybrids including PHEV but like Toyota is currently lacking with BEV. They cancelled Clarity EV earlier this year. However, Honda's partnership with General Motors should allow them to catch up in the BEV market. Hyundai has a more balanced product lineup that includes hybrid (non-plug in), PHEV, and BEV.

Didn’t realize Toyota has 13.  I expect Ford to have at least that many in the next 2 years.  Every platform is HEV capable now along with the new BEV platforms.

[akirby]

33 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

In the U.S. market Toyota offers by far the most hybrid (non-plug in) models of any automaker with 13. Most Toyota and Lexus sedans have a hybrid variant. Also 2 PHEV models. But hybrids including PHEV are a dead end technology. Toyota biggest weakness currently is its lack of BEV for the U.S. market, along with their fixation on developing hydrogen fuel cell (fool cell) passenger cars.

 

Honda is also strong in hybrids including PHEV but like Toyota is currently lacking with BEV. They cancelled Clarity EV earlier this year. However, Honda's partnership with General Motors should allow them to catch up in the BEV market. Hyundai has a more balanced product lineup that includes hybrid (non-plug in), PHEV, and BEV.

Not counting fuel cells I only see 9 for Toyota and 2 are just different versions of the same vehicle and that includes plug ins.  How the heck do you get 13.

 

Honda only has 4.

Hyundai has 3 vehicles each of which has 2 or 3 propulsion options.

 

 

 

 

 

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

No company line, just basic common sense and a simple analysis of the facts.

 

FACTS

sedan market is overcrowded with good entries and low end price wars and it’s shrinking

higher end sedan buyers have moved to crossovers where they perceive more value resulting in low ATPs and low profit margins. 

 

Ford has a fixed amount of capital, people and other resources.  Developing 8 brand new vehicles while maintaining all the current vehicles and keeping them fresh and building new factories is not possible.  Something had to go and cars are the least profitable for the reasons mentioned above.

 

Its really simple - keep Fusion and Focus and watch sales drop and profit plunge or replace them with Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport and Maverick.

 

Facts, not company lines.

In spite of  Ford GM and FCA moving away from cars, Toyota, Honda and other Asian brands

are still seeing car sales decline even with Detroit virtually handing car sales to them.

So wherever those former car buyers are going, it sure isn't to Japanese or Korean cars.

 

Today is all about trucks and utilities, so convincing enough buyers to go back to a car

may be the biggest point against spending time or resources  unless they find a way of

delivering something  desirable with with a Utility price.

Edited September 22, 2020 by jpd80

[rperez817]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

Not counting fuel cells I only see 9 for Toyota and 2 are just different versions of the same vehicle and that includes plug ins.  How the heck do you get 13.

 

I included Lexus hybrid models (Toyota corporate, not just Toyota brand).

1.) Camry

2.) Corolla

3.) Avalon

4.) RAV4

5.) Prius

6.) Highlander

7.) Venza

8.) Lexus UX

9.) Lexus RX

10.) Lexus NX

11.) Lexus ES

12.) Lexus LS

13.) Lexus LC

 

2021 Sienna will be a hybrid only model when it comes out later this year. The 2 PHEV Toyotas are Prius Prime and RAV4 Prime. No Lexus plug-in models yet.

Edited September 22, 2020 by rperez817

[akirby]

Forgot about Lexus.

[jcartwright99]

I feel like we go through this every week. Somebody gets upset that other manufactures make sedans and Ford does not, they start complaining and saying Ford is making a mistake. Meanwhile, every manufacture is in a different spot. For Ford, it did not make sense to keep making cars with the pricing and costs taken into account. It may make sense for Kia or Honda but it still doesn't for Ford. 

 

Nobody is saying you can't like sedans. Nobody is saying that you can't be disappointed. The only thing we are saying at this time, it does not make sense in the US to offer cars. It would not be a good business decision for Ford to do so. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by jcartwright99

[CoolScoop]

https://www.autospies.com/news/WHICH-Best-Selling-Sedan-Is-DYING-FASTER-Honda-Accord-Or-Toyota-Camry-102938/

 

All sedans are losing ground including the top two... and even with greatly reduced competition!

Edited September 22, 2020 by CoolScoop

[jcartwright99]

19 minutes ago, CoolScoop said:

https://www.autospies.com/news/WHICH-Best-Selling-Sedan-Is-DYING-FASTER-Honda-Accord-Or-Toyota-Camry-102938/

 

All sedans are losing ground including the top two... and even with greatly reduced competition!

 

I wasn't totally surprised the Accord was in worse shape. They seem less likely to deal on price.  I did notice they dropped their manual offering this year. I am thinking Honda is trying to minimize as many options as they can so they keep up their margins. If sales continue to drop, I wouldn't be surprised to see them offer only one ICE engine.

Edited September 22, 2020 by jcartwright99

[FordBuyer]

14 hours ago, akirby said:

No company line, just basic common sense and a simple analysis of the facts.

 

FACTS

sedan market is overcrowded with good entries and low end price wars and it’s shrinking

higher end sedan buyers have moved to crossovers where they perceive more value resulting in low ATPs and low profit margins. 

 

Ford has a fixed amount of capital, people and other resources.  Developing 8 brand new vehicles while maintaining all the current vehicles and keeping them fresh and building new factories is not possible.  Something had to go and cars are the least profitable for the reasons mentioned above.

 

Its really simple - keep Fusion and Focus and watch sales drop and profit plunge or replace them with Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport and Maverick.

 

Facts, not company lines.

You could also say the CUV segment is overcrowded and increasingly so and add a dying sport coupe segment also. But Ford is in both and is adding to both segments. 

[rperez817]

1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

You could also say the CUV segment is overcrowded and increasingly so and add a dying sport coupe segment also. But Ford is in both and is adding to both segments. 

 

Very true FordBuyer sir. Something in Ford's favor - Ford products in those 2 segments have more consistent, long term nameplate recognition compared to Ford's recent sedans. While Ford still faces stiff competition with both sport coupes and crossovers, at least Ford's reputation with those vehicles hasn't been completely destroyed.

[jpd80]

59 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

You could also say the CUV segment is overcrowded and increasingly so and add a dying sport coupe segment also. But Ford is in both and is adding to both segments.

 

Ford is years late to cashing in on surging utility sales, that perceived overcrowding in utility segments

is exactly because all manufacturers are trying to cash in on buyers switching away from cars.

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, jcartwright99 said:

I wasn't totally surprised the Accord was in worse shape. They seem less likely to deal on price.

 

Yes sir jcartwright99, Toyota regularly offers customer rebates while Honda rarely does that. However, 2020 Accord (all trim levels) has lower MSRP than comparably equipped 2020 Camry. For the consumer, it's a wash, Camry and Accord will be priced similarly after all sales incentives are taken into account.

 

Another difference is that Toyota sells Camrys directly to fleet customers. Honda doesn't do direct fleet sales with Accord.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

You could also say the CUV segment is overcrowded and increasingly so and add a dying sport coupe segment also. But Ford is in both and is adding to both segments. 

Go compare prices on sedans vs the same size CUV.  CUVs are at least $5K more on the low end and probably $20k higher on the upper end.  

 

Mustang prices are similarly a lot higher and Mustang is an icon.

 

Fusion ATP was probably in the $25K range selling mostly SEs with $5K rebates while Bronco Sport will be in the mid to high $30Ks.

 

Thats the difference.   I don’t know why you can’t just accept the facts, say you’re disappointed and move on?

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

You could also say the CUV segment is overcrowded and increasingly so and add a dying sport coupe segment also. But Ford is in both and is adding to both segments. 

 

How is Ford adding to the "sport coupe" segment?

 

If referring to Mach E, I don't understand.  It may use the Mustang name, but it's definitely not in the "sport coupe" segment.