silvrsvt Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 https://www.motor1.com/news/445501/2021-ford-puma-st-revealed/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 24, 2020 Share Posted September 24, 2020 3 hours ago, silvrsvt said: https://www.motor1.com/news/445501/2021-ford-puma-st-revealed/ They should bring this over and get rid of the marginal at best eco sport 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said: They should bring this over and get rid of the marginal at best eco sport I'd have no problem with Ford "2-pronging" the segment with the sporty/swoopy Puma, and keeping the EcoSport more upright and utilitarian (i.e. more skewed toward the Bronco side of things without being a Bronco). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 20 minutes ago, rmc523 said: I'd have no problem with Ford "2-pronging" the segment with the sporty/swoopy Puma, and keeping the EcoSport more upright and utilitarian (i.e. more skewed toward the Bronco side of things without being a Bronco). Yeah, I’d like to see the bronco sport grow about 6”. Then they could replace the Ecosport with a vehicle that’s similar to the bronco sport but smaller, and then the puma for those who like a sportier style. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 49 minutes ago, rmc523 said: I'd have no problem with Ford "2-pronging" the segment with the sporty/swoopy Puma, and keeping the EcoSport more upright and utilitarian (i.e. more skewed toward the Bronco side of things without being a Bronco). I still say get rid of the ecosport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 25, 2020 Author Share Posted September 25, 2020 1 hour ago, rmc523 said: I'd have no problem with Ford "2-pronging" the segment with the sporty/swoopy Puma, and keeping the EcoSport more upright and utilitarian (i.e. more skewed toward the Bronco side of things without being a Bronco). 47 minutes ago, T-dubz said: Yeah, I’d like to see the bronco sport grow about 6”. Then they could replace the Ecosport with a vehicle that’s similar to the bronco sport but smaller, and then the puma for those who like a sportier style. 20 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said: I still say get rid of the ecosport. Couple issues- The low end of the market is very price sensitive and I think the Puma is "too nice" in content and pricing for it compete realistically in the US-it would very hard pressed to make a profit for what it is and what people expect in the US. Small cars are still viewed as basic/cheap transportation. If the BS grew 6 inches, it would be virtually the same size as the Escape and actually longer then the Bronco 2 door. The difference between the two of them is only an inch or two. I know two different products and amount of doors, but I think it would blend over too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 47 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Couple issues- The low end of the market is very price sensitive and I think the Puma is "too nice" in content and pricing for it compete realistically in the US-it would very hard pressed to make a profit for what it is and what people expect in the US. Small cars are still viewed as basic/cheap transportation. If the BS grew 6 inches, it would be virtually the same size as the Escape and actually longer then the Bronco 2 door. The difference between the two of them is only an inch or two. I know two different products and amount of doors, but I think it would blend over too much. Except I'm marketing it as a Kia Soul type product that is small but has some style to it. Not as complete appliance. I think that's how you get people in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 I think the Kia Soul is a good reference as these vehicles seem like they would be cross shopped. A Soul EX (top of the line non turbo) starts at around $23k. It’s standard features include a 10.25” touchscreen, wireless charging, push button start, remote start, navigation, plus many more including safety tech. Kia has a way of having a lot of tech but still being cheaper than other brands, so why can’t ford produce the puma similarly equipped for let’s say $25k? For reference, base model souls start around $17k and go up to $27k for the turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 16 minutes ago, T-dubz said: I think the Kia Soul is a good reference as these vehicles seem like they would be cross shopped. A Soul EX (top of the line non turbo) starts at around $23k. It’s standard features include a 10.25” touchscreen, wireless charging, push button start, remote start, navigation, plus many more including safety tech. Kia has a way of having a lot of tech but still being cheaper than other brands, so why can’t ford produce the puma similarly equipped for let’s say $25k? For reference, base model souls start around $17k and go up to $27k for the turbo. Exactly why I picked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 25, 2020 Author Share Posted September 25, 2020 7 hours ago, T-dubz said: so why can’t ford produce the puma similarly equipped for let’s say $25k? For reference, base model souls start around $17k and go up to $27k for the turbo. Because they don't have space for it to be built some place low cost (i.e. Mexico) and be able to import it into the US? China is a non-starter and Puma is only built in Romania. To be honest, I think Ford is going to this exact route with the Maverick-its going into a market that has nearly no competition (well at least in North America) and will be appealing to people who buy it. Lots of people want a basic pickup truck that doesn't cost 30k + plus. Keep the options limited so the cost is kept low, but keep the important one standard. Limit it to maybe two powertrains (at first) then maybe expand upon it (like a performance model with the 2.3L in it) down the road. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 (edited) Puma goes on sale in Australia about now and starts at $29,900 + ORC for $31,990 drive away Given the exchange rate, that starting price is US$21,000 plus on road costs....for RHD. Edited September 25, 2020 by jpd80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 25, 2020 Author Share Posted September 25, 2020 1 hour ago, jpd80 said: Puma goes on sale in Australia about now and starts at $29,900 + ORC for $31,990 drive away Given the exchange rate, that starting price is US$21,000 plus on road costs....for RHD. Counterpoint- starting price Ecosport in India is ₹ 8.18 Lakh (818000) or $11k USD and its starting price is $19995 in the US. The AUD is very weak against the USD anyways. Its roughly .70 per USD I was looking at Mustang Pricing...we have a bit more options in the US vs the UK. but a Ecoboost Mustang in the UK is £39,420 or $50,092 vs roughly $33,170 in the US. Exchange rate is 1.27 per pound, so they are a getting fucked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 7 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Because they don't have space for it to be built some place low cost (i.e. Mexico) and be able to import it into the US? China is a non-starter and Puma is only built in Romania. To be honest, I think Ford is going to this exact route with the Maverick-its going into a market that has nearly no competition (well at least in North America) and will be appealing to people who buy it. Lots of people want a basic pickup truck that doesn't cost 30k + plus. Keep the options limited so the cost is kept low, but keep the important one standard. Limit it to maybe two powertrains (at first) then maybe expand upon it (like a performance model with the 2.3L in it) down the road. What ever happened with Cuatitlan or however it's spelled that made the Fiesta? What's going there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 25, 2020 Author Share Posted September 25, 2020 4 minutes ago, rmc523 said: What ever happened with Cuatitlan or however it's spelled that made the Fiesta? What's going there? Mustang Mach E...not sure what else they might but there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Mustang Mach E...not sure what else they might but there I thought Mach E was Hermosillo too. I'd imagine they'd want to put something else there too. Unless they truly project it taking off longer term once they work out supply constraints? Edited September 25, 2020 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 4 hours ago, rmc523 said: I thought Mach E was Hermosillo too. I'd imagine they'd want to put something else there too. Unless they truly project it taking off longer term once they work out supply constraints? Nothing else planned for Cuautitlan, MME's platform was developed/ evolved from C2 but there's zero plans of any more vehicles using it or another vehicle being built with MME. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passis Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, rmc523 said: What ever happened with Cuatitlan or however it's spelled that made the Fiesta? What's going there? Since they're making the MME there, I think it would be sensible to produce the Transit EV (oversimplified logic). I don't know this plant's capacity but -even then - I imagine there could be some space for an entry level crossover. Edited September 26, 2020 by passis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 26, 2020 Author Share Posted September 26, 2020 21 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Nothing else planned for Cuautitlan, MME's platform was developed/ evolved from C2 but there's zero plans of any more vehicles using it or another vehicle being built with MME. I was under the impression that the BEV Mid Size CUV would be using it...guess we will find out Sunday 19 minutes ago, passis said: Since they're making the MME there, I think it would be sensible to produce the Transit EV (oversimplified logic). I don't know this plant's capacity but -even then - I imagine there could be some space for an entry level crossover. I think the Transit is going to be a conversion or something at Avon Lake. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 5 hours ago, jpd80 said: Nothing else planned for Cuautitlan, MME's platform was developed/ evolved from C2 but there's zero plans of any more vehicles using it or another vehicle being built with MME. Seems like a waste of a factory for 50k units. 5 hours ago, silvrsvt said: I was under the impression that the BEV Mid Size CUV would be using it...guess we will find out Sunday I think the Transit is going to be a conversion or something at Avon Lake. What happens Sunday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 6 hours ago, silvrsvt said: I was under the impression that the BEV Mid Size CUV would be using it...guess we will find out Sunday I think the Transit is going to be a conversion or something at Avon Lake. The mid-sized BEVs are a different platform again, a clean sheet design rather than MME's contorted evolution away from its C2 beginnings (control costs). As far as I know the EV Transits get built down the Transit KCAP line but that was announced at the same time as the upgrades for OHAP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, rmc523 said: Seems like a waste of a factory for 50k units. It is if that's all Ford can pull for MME, remember that MME was a rescue plan for an off course C-Max BEV and that Ford has moved on with BEV design. MME sucked up a lot of time and resources, I think that Ford was so far into developing the BEV C-Max that it just couldn't just walk away. They've tried very hard to conjure a win out of this that it's now about recovering costs and experience building BEVs before the main game starts, Ford talks a good game with BEVs but nothing apart from MME coming for a few years. Edited September 26, 2020 by jpd80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 5 hours ago, rmc523 said: What happens Sunday? The details of the agreement at OAC are supposed to be made public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-dubz Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 5 hours ago, jpd80 said: It is if that's all Ford can pull for MME, remember that MME was a rescue plan for an off course C-Max BEV and that Ford has moved on with BEV design. MME sucked up a lot of time and resources, I think that Ford was so far into developing the BEV C-Max that it just couldn't just walk away. They've tried very hard to conjure a win out of this that it's now about recovering costs and experience building BEVs before the main game starts, Ford talks a good game with BEVs but nothing apart from MME coming for a few years. This sounds like a tremendous waste of resources. I know it was a rescue plan, but did they not plan for the frame/skateboard platform from the original design to be shared with other vehicles? One of the benefits of a skateboard platform is that you just have to put a different top hat on and you have a new car right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 26, 2020 Author Share Posted September 26, 2020 4 hours ago, T-dubz said: This sounds like a tremendous waste of resources. I know it was a rescue plan, but did they not plan for the frame/skateboard platform from the original design to be shared with other vehicles? One of the benefits of a skateboard platform is that you just have to put a different top hat on and you have a new car right? I think things are getting looked into too much here. what it boils down to is the original BEV was a compliance vehicle for the EU (50% of 2020 production is going there) to meet a mid 2020s BEV requirements there. Sales where planned for NA also, but that wasn’t the primary market. So I’m guessing during a product review they came to the conclusion that a Cmax style vehicle wouldn’t cut it and wanted something desirable like a Tesla, so it was made into a the Mustang Mach E. I think we can agree that a MME is far more appealing then say a Chevy Bolt or Nissian Leaf. Outside of sheet metal and suspension tuning, it wasn’t a huge redo. As for utilization of Plant it’s being built at-Guess we will have to find out what else they have planned, if anything. A standard ICE platform can do the same thing. The only difference I can think of is that a BEV skateboard uses the battery as a structural member. I haven’t taken a good look at the MME chassis setup. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 53 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: I think things are getting looked into too much here. what it boils down to is the original BEV was a compliance vehicle for the EU (50% of 2020 production is going there) to meet a mid 2020s BEV requirements there. Sales where planned for NA also, but that wasn’t the primary market. So I’m guessing during a product review they came to the conclusion that a Cmax style vehicle wouldn’t cut it and wanted something desirable like a Tesla, so it was made into a the Mustang Mach E. I think we can agree that a MME is far more appealing then say a Chevy Bolt or Nissian Leaf. Outside of sheet metal and suspension tuning, it wasn’t a huge redo. As for utilization of Plant it’s being built at-Guess we will have to find out what else they have planned, if anything. A standard ICE platform can do the same thing. The only difference I can think of is that a BEV skateboard uses the battery as a structural member. I haven’t taken a good look at the MME chassis setup. Well, perhaps the bigger advantage of the skateboard is that it is designed from the get-go to accommodate batteries, so you don't wind up with cases like the Fusion energi hybrids that had the giant chunk taken out of the trunk for batteries. You can obviously design an ICE platform to account for batteries too, but usually not the amount you need for a full EV without compromises. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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