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Ford-Rivian Partnership Is ‘Going Great,’ Ford Model Still On Track


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3 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

I know, was making the point that I had already posted that info.

Not exactly sir, you posted either OAC or Ohio AP.

oakville isn’t switching to BEVs until after 2025.

 

Ohio is a spread out plant but there’s been no word on 

what part will be configured or whether they just build an annexe.

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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

But why are they going to threaten their own products they have with Rivian based ones?

 

That's the main problem about Ford's "not invented here" culture. It's based on the erroneous notion that Ford's "own products" and ideas are inherently better than those that come from other sources, such as Rivian.

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35 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

That's the main problem about Ford's "not invented here" culture. It's based on the erroneous notion that Ford's "own products" and ideas are inherently better than those that come from other sources, such as Rivian.


In some cases they are better.  Nobody does pickups better or longer than Ford.  There are many things Ford can teach Rivian and Tesla about mass production, crash testing, etc.  There are also new things that Ford could learn.  It’s not nearly as one sided as you want to believe.

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55 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

That's the main problem about Ford's "not invented here" culture. It's based on the erroneous notion that Ford's "own products" and ideas are inherently better than those that come from other sources, such as Rivian.

 

Dollars to donuts, Rivian has its own bureaucracy and that engineers have left the company because of it.

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26 minutes ago, akirby said:

It’s not nearly as one sided as you want to believe.

 

No one claimed the Ford-Rivian partnership was one sided, certainly not me. The article in the 1st post of this thread quoted Kumar Galhotra's statement that Ford and Rivian are working together well, that's why I said earlier that Ford may be moving beyond its traditionally tribal organizational culture. While Ford has more to gain from this partnership, both companies ultimately benefit.

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Canadian suppliers have ground to make up in EV game

EDITOR’S NOTE: This is part three of a three-part Automotive News Canada series called Electrifying Oakville, which takes a closer look at the pledge Ford. Motor Co. has made to electric vehicles and its only assembly plant in Ontario, and how that could affect the Canadian auto industry as a whole.

As automakers shift to electric vehicles, Canadian suppliers face a “valley of death,” having to invest in expensive new technologies with little short-term prospects to earn a profit, analysts and auto parts executives say.

“We’re trying to develop portions of the supply chain from scratch,” said Brendan Sweeney, managing director of the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing, a London, Ont.-based nonprofit organization dedicated to raising public and investor awareness of Ontario’s advanced manufacturing.

A collective agreement reached in September between Unifor and Ford Canada commits the company to begin retooling its Oakville assembly plant in 2024 to build five battery-electric vehicles there by 2027. This initiative presents suppliers with both opportunities and challenges.

Major Canada-based suppliers, such as Magna International and Linamar, might only need to retool to build some EV components, but other portions of the supply chain simply don’t exist here, Sweeney said. While many EV components are similar to those found in internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, propulsion systems (electric motors, transfer cases and related parts) and batteries are unique to EVs.

“The big one is batteries. We don’t do that much in Canada...China, Japan and Europe have much more advanced battery technologies.”

BEREFT OF BATTERIES 

Creating a battery supply chain will require increased mining of raw materials, adding refining capacity and developing advanced manufacturing that is not done here, Sweeney said. Yet, he believes it can be done because Canadian suppliers can “piggyback” on technological advances achieved in other jurisdictions.

“Can we realize a battery supply chain here? Sure,” said Sweeney, noting the country has reserves of the rare-earth and other minerals used in lithium-ion batteries.

Importing batteries from offshore suppliers is unrealistic, said Joe McCabe, CEO of AutoForecast Solutions, a U.S.-based industry consultancy and forecasting firm. He said that under provisions of the United States-MexicoCanada Agreement (USMCA), automakers must source 75 per cent of a vehicle’s content from North America to avoid hefty tariffs. Batteries are a major component in EVs.

McCabe said China-based companies could set up Canadian subsidiaries to avoid USMCA tariffs but “would have to justify building 50,000 units,” which is unlikely to be large enough to merit the investment.

Brett Smith, director, technology for the Center for Automotive Research, in Ann Arbor, Mich., said any new battery facility in Canada can expect to operate well below capacity for several years while the market grows. To fund it, companies would likely have to harvest profits from the sale of internal-combustion components and channel them into the unprofitable EV field.

“How do you get through this valley of low profitability?” said Smith. “Some call it the valley of death.”

EV INVESTMENT RISK 

Smith said automakers might estimate high volumes — Unifor President Jerry Dias said Ford could eventually produce 200,000 EVs annually in Oakville — but the actual sales could be much lower.

“Everyone estimates that they’re going to build 200,000, but it might turn out to be 65,000,” said Smith.

Flavio Volpe, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers’ Association, said the challenge small parts makers face is “reaching scale.”

In some cases, those companies might seek partnerships with large, diversified companies, such as Magna, to achieve the capacity to manufacture at the scale required by automakers.

The potential for a large supply order will likely “inspire” those companies to develop the necessary capabilities, he said.

Volpe cited three smaller companies with strong potential: Quebec-based Dana TM4, eCAMION and Electrovaya.

Dana TM4, a partnership between Dana and HydroQuebec, develops electric-vehicle motors, generators, power electronics and control systems; eCAMION is a Scarborough, Ont.-based energy-storage company formed by engineers who worked on EVs for General Motors; and Mississauga, Ont.-based Electrovaya developed lithium-ion based rechargeable batteries for the NASA space shuttle program.

“These three long-term players may finally see their day,” said Volpe.

Smith said they’re going up against large international suppliers, such as LG Chem, which have deep pockets and advanced experience.

LONG ROAD TO PROFITABILITY 

Yet small parts makers have little choice but to try, he said, noting that the industry has made a commitment to EVs as the future.

ECAMION President Carmine Pizzurro said his company is already taking steps to bid on a contract to supply a propulsion battery for the Ford EVs. To accommodate the automaker’s capacity needs, eCAMION has partnered with Matcor-Matsu, of Brampton, Ont., a large maker of precision stamped and assembled metallic components for the auto industry.

“We’re like 30 or 40 people [at eCAMION],” Pizzurro said. “We’re engineers. We can figure it out, but we need the capital a large company has.

“The amount of money it takes to ramp up — you’re going to lose money for a while ... you have to know how much it’s going to cost you, and how long it will take you to get it back.

“If you’re building 20,000 e-cars a year, you are not going to get it back.”

Pizzurro, a former GM employee who worked on the Chevrolet Volt hybrid-sedan program, pointed to battery maker XALT Energy, of Midland, Mich., as an example of the lengthy payback time. It took that company eight years before it reached profitability, he said.

Canada does not make battery cells at all, instead importing them from the United States and Korea, Pizzurro said. A few years ago, eCAMION sought federal subsidies to establish a battery-cell manufacturing facility here but was denied because the company was not well known and did not have secured business, he said. Except for the cells, eCAMION manufacturers all other battery components in Canada, he said.

Electrovaya spokesman Jason Roy said the company took over a Smart car EV battery-cell plant in 2014 from Daimler in Germany. When sales volumes dropped to 5,000 a year, Electrovaya abandoned the facility in 2017 as uneconomical.

Electrovaya assembles battery parts in Canada sourced from around the world, including the United States and Asia, Roy said. He declined to comment on future product plans, although he acknowledged a major investment would spur growth: “The more [investment] we get, the faster the electric motor runs.”

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On 10/26/2020 at 1:42 PM, bzcat said:

Rivian is building 3 vehicles off its skateboard chassis: pickup, SUV, and van. Ford is also making its own EV pickup, SUV, and van. If you don't see a problem here, you haven't worked inside a big company with internal politics.

 

I think there is a degree of bickering inside Ford right now about how to incorporate Rivian into its product plans for the future. If you are a vehicle engineer or program manager, you don't want your vehicle to be designated "Rivian based" for obvious reasons. You going to fight tooth and nail to have your vehicle based on the Ford chassis. 

 

I believe Hackett and Farley thought Rivian will be a shortcut to getting more EV to market faster. But once the projects get down to the details, you have to have answers to a lot of questions and this leads to conflicts and delays. 

 

Until Ford and Rivian's relationship becomes more clear (who wears the pants in this relationship), I don't believe there will be any mainstream market targeted Rivian based Ford vehicles. Lots of practical questions needs to be answered before the rank and file will fall in line. For example, will Rivian vehicles use Ford designed steering rack or seats? That may seem trivial to some people but it is a huge part of vehicle development because they have major impact on crash test safety protection and teams of people spent their careers working on integrating those things to different vehicles. 

 

Yes and no. Rivian has made sure Ford will never wear the pants in this relationship. Their investment from Amazon made sure of that. Ford is more than happy to sit at the table listening to Amazon's logistical and vehicle needs that with 1 plant in Normal Rivian will never be able to fully supply. 

 

Ford recently announced it has no plans to take Lincoln outside of North America. They'll only build their bread and butter in the US (F-150). All other electrics it seems they want to take global which means Ford branded only. I'm guessing a explorer sized new model will be the partnered vehicle and it will be a global model. 

 

All that said...I wouldn't put it past them to make a large electric Bronco on that Rivian skateboard. Even though Bronco is also N America only. 

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2 hours ago, Fleuve said:

 

Yes and no. Rivian has made sure Ford will never wear the pants in this relationship. Their investment from Amazon made sure of that. Ford is more than happy to sit at the table listening to Amazon's logistical and vehicle needs that with 1 plant in Normal Rivian will never be able to fully supply. 

 

Ford recently announced it has no plans to take Lincoln outside of North America. They'll only build their bread and butter in the US (F-150). All other electrics it seems they want to take global which means Ford branded only. I'm guessing a explorer sized new model will be the partnered vehicle and it will be a global model. 

 

All that said...I wouldn't put it past them to make a large electric Bronco on that Rivian skateboard. Even though Bronco is also N America only. 

 

You mean, no plans to take Lincoln to Europe or, likely, India (despite trademarks recently registered in both places, probably for defensive purposes). Obviously, Lincoln will remain in China, South Korea and the Middle East. 

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22 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

 

You mean, no plans to take Lincoln to Europe or, likely, India (despite trademarks recently registered in both places, probably for defensive purposes). Obviously, Lincoln will remain in China, South Korea and the Middle East. 

 

Your exactly right! Thanks for clarifying. 

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35 minutes ago, twintornados said:

 

I would bet that Bronco becomes a global vehicle.


it was initially announced to be when they first announced it at NAIAS but the plan changed somewhere along the line. Good thing too probably since demand is so high and MAP was to be the only source for it globally. 

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52 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


it was initially announced to be when they first announced it at NAIAS but the plan changed somewhere along the line. Good thing too probably since demand is so high and MAP was to be the only source for it globally. 

 

Well, I am sure that a factory can be spooled up in Asia or mainland China for sales there. As we are all aware, plans can change as time goes on.

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1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


it was initially announced to be when they first announced it at NAIAS but the plan changed somewhere along the line. Good thing too probably since demand is so high and MAP was to be the only source for it globally. 

 

I'd imagine they scaled back the initial plan, and maybe a few years down the road, they'll expand it to ROW availability.

 

They're in a good position right now, in that they have a ton of demand for their initial allocation, so they don't have to worry about filling demand with a ROW offering.

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