Another new V8 ?

[Bob Rosadini]

On 11/16/2020 at 2:05 PM, jpd80 said:

The big difference between USA and ROW  is the use of smaller diesels and manual transmissions,

so I wonder if that lower power, slower acceleration, increased engine braking and generally slower

journey speeds all adds up to a design found wanting when put into US conditions with higher expectations.

 

All the problems reported present as substandard or defective  parts but I wonder if it's simply the design

being a bit under done for North America.

Wouldn't manual transmissions and higher torque at start up (diesels) tend to be harder on the drivetrain?-in particular the "U" joint-whatever it may be? At least with an automatic you don't have to worry about the lazy driver starting in too high a gear with its attendant clutch slipping and over revving to get rolling....??

[ESP08]

23 hours ago, blksn8k2 said:

 

One thing Ford did not get right on the gen 3 Coyote is NVH. The damn thing sounds like a diesel typewriter at times. I tried covering up some of the injector noise on my '18 F-150 by installing a Mustang GT engine cover. While it did help some it didn't do squat for all the other miscellaneous rattles and clangs which Ford claims is "normal". It is normally embarrassing to let idle which is another reason to not switch off the Auto Stop/Start (ASS) system.

That’s honestly fairly normal for GDI.  I’ve heard many new Toyota, Lexus, and Hyundai GDI engines that sound like quiet running diesels at idle.  

[ESP08]

On 11/11/2020 at 8:57 AM, CGIron said:

Which block is smaller and lighter ? The 3 l V6 aluminiumblock from Mercedes or the 3 l V6 block from Audi made in CGI?

 

https://www.sintercast.com/market/exhibitions-2012-19/

 

Scoll down to

GIFA World Foundry Trade Fair, 16-20 June 2015

" The display also included a direct comparison between the Audi 3.0 litre V6 CGI cylinder block and the Mercedes 3.0 litre V6 aluminium cylinder block, highlighting that the assembled Compacted Graphite Iron engine is 125 mm shorter and weighs 15 kg less than the aluminium engine."

 

 

 

beware of  akirby but these are raw facts. 

Those engines are different sizes because they have different basic dimensions, like bore spacing and deck height, not because they are made from different materials. 
 

Are you seriously arguing the iron engine is smaller because it is CGI?  Come on man, do you know anything about engines at all?  

[jpd80]

You see similar when Mustang was given a version of the 6MT used in Transit and Ranger. There were a mix of problems that showed up which would have been less noticeable in a diesel Transit or Ranger, be they design or defective parts.

 

We don’t hear of major problems with Transits in ROW, if they are there, it’s more pronounced in North America.

Edited November 19, 2020 by jpd80

[YT90SC]

20 minutes ago, ESP08 said:

That’s honestly fairly normal for GDI.  I’ve heard many new Toyota, Lexus, and Hyundai GDI engines that sound like quiet running diesels at idle.  

18 and up make all kinds of "normal" noises beyond the HPFP. It really is a nasty issue with 5.0 at the moment. But, if they make it to the first oil change, they tend to not be affected by the noise, longevity wise. 

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, ESP08 said:

Those engines are different sizes because they have different basic dimensions, like bore spacing and deck height, not because they are made from different materials. 
 

Are you seriously arguing the iron engine is smaller because it is CGI?  Come on man, do you know anything about engines at all?  

And we were all trying so  hard to resist answering him.....he's a promotion-bot for a certain  material.....

[bzcat]

18 hours ago, jpd80 said:

You see similar when Mustang was given a version of the 6MT used in Transit and Ranger. There were a mix of problems that showed up which would have been less noticeable in a diesel Transit or Ranger, be they design or defective parts.

 

We don’t hear of major problems with Transits in ROW, if they are there, it’s more pronounced in North America.

 

A lot of Transit overseas are FWD so it doesn't even have a drive shaft with guibo.

 

But I think your general hypothesis is probably correct... typical US market use for Transit maybe more extreme than overseas and/or the particular part supply chain quality in the US is compromised due to whatever reason.  We don't see widespread the premature failure of drive shaft guibo in RWD Transit built in Turkey. 

[White99GT]

19 hours ago, YT90SC said:

18 and up make all kinds of "normal" noises beyond the HPFP. It really is a nasty issue with 5.0 at the moment. But, if they make it to the first oil change, they tend to not be affected by the noise, longevity wise. 

 I was under the impression that the Gen 3 5.0 issues were supposed to have been corrected as of a Jan 19 engine build date. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by White99GT

[YT90SC]

11 minutes ago, White99GT said:

 I was under the impression that the Gen 3 5.0 issues were supposed to have been corrected as of a Jan 19 engine build date. 

Not sure? We completely quit stocking 5.0 F150s and only sell a few Mustangs. The ones we see all typewriter, rattle, tick, knock or drop valves. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, YT90SC said:

Not sure? We completely quit stocking 5.0 F150s and only sell a few Mustangs. The ones we see all typewriter, rattle, tick, knock or drop valves. 

But it’s so much simpler and more reliable than those danged ecoboost things......

[coupe3w]

42 minutes ago, akirby said:

But it’s so much simpler and more reliable than those danged ecoboost things......

Yes, that 7.3L certainly is.

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

A lot of Transit overseas are FWD so it doesn't even have a drive shaft with guibo.

 

But I think your general hypothesis is probably correct... typical US market use for Transit maybe more extreme than overseas and/or the particular part supply chain quality in the US is compromised due to whatever reason.  We don't see widespread the premature failure of drive shaft guibo in RWD Transit built in Turkey. 

Your last statement is key to the issue and the fact that Ford is going to a U Joint remedy

speaks to the Giubo joint being under designed for US applications and not a quality issue.

[coupe3w]

5 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Your last statement is key to the issue and the fact that Ford is going to a U Joint remedy

speaks to the Giubo joint being under designed for US applications and not a quality issue.

Wait. What?

[probowler]

15 minutes ago, coupe3w said:

Wait. What?

The part worked for what it was designed for: Shitty, low-powered euro trash Transit

 

But it breaks when you put it in a more powerful american Transit.

He's technically correct, but unfortunately the general public isn't going to understand that. They'll see it as poor quality control by ford. And honestly, they'd be correct.  Ford should have tested the part better to prevent this issue from ever happening in the first place. I think it fits in both categories.

[coupe3w]

2 minutes ago, probowler said:

The part worked for what it was designed for: Shitty, low-powered euro trash Transit

 

But it breaks when you put it in a more powerful american Transit.

He's technically correct, but unfortunately the general public isn't going to understand that. They'll see it as poor quality control by ford. And honestly, they'd be correct.  Ford should have tested the part better to prevent this issue from ever happening in the first place. I think it fits in both categories.

I agree. The part worked well for what it was designed for. But when the part was used in something it wasn't designed for is where the quality fell through the cracks. And that is a problem if that keeps happening.

[ESP08]

1 hour ago, coupe3w said:

Yes, that 7.3L certainly is.

 

7.3s are having a few issues too.  Spark plug wires being the most common.  

The Ecoboost engines are suffering the decel ratcheting sound just like the Gen 3 5.0s also, its the cam phasers.  

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by ESP08

[coupe3w]

1 hour ago, ESP08 said:

 

7.3s are having a few issues too.  Spark plug wires being the most common.  

The Ecoboost engines are suffering the decel ratcheting sound just like the Gen 3 5.0s also, its the cam phasers.  

 

 

Did the dealer say it was normal, LOL like the ticking in the 5.0 Coyote's?

[rajputaman04]

I am glad that it’s pushrod though.  I think GM and Chrysler have proven that pushrod V8s are fantastic engines and the packaging advantages are huge. mxplayer

Edited January 4, 2021 by rajputaman04

[Sevensecondsuv]

15 hours ago, coupe3w said:

Did the dealer say it was normal, LOL like the ticking in the 5.0 Coyote's?

 

Gasoline direct injection sounds like a great idea on paper - allows much higher compression ratios, precise control of combustion, etc.  But the more I see of them in real life practice, the more I'm not liking the technology.  Between the ticking racket, warranty issues, and up-front cost and long-term maintenance cost of having a high-pressure fuel system, it just seems like good old port injection is how it should be for gasoline engines.  If port injection isn't meeting power/torque goals, increase displacement.....

 

That's in my perfect world where emissions and fuel efficiency take a back seat to everything else, anyways.

[jpd80]

11 hours ago, Sevensecondsuv said:

 

Gasoline direct injection sounds like a great idea on paper - allows much higher compression ratios, precise control of combustion, etc.  But the more I see of them in real life practice, the more I'm not liking the technology.  Between the ticking racket, warranty issues, and up-front cost and long-term maintenance cost of having a high-pressure fuel system, it just seems like good old port injection is how it should be for gasoline engines.  If port injection isn't meeting power/torque goals, increase displacement.....

 

That's in my perfect world where emissions and fuel efficiency take a back seat to everything else, anyways.

I wonder if the clicking is exactly because the injectors are now being made too cheap to keep them quiet.... that would be my suspicion anyway as price increases were held down with the switch to FI or even dual injection PFFI.

 

Ford took the opportunity to hit the reset button and simplify the engine that larger truck buyers wanted, they can add more features as needed but at the moment, 7.3 is an acknowledgement of what buyers want.

 

Now build a 5.8 with AFM for F150 and watch V8 buyers come back even stronger.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by jpd80

[slemke]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

 

Now build a 5.8 with AFM for F150 and watch V8 buyers come back even stronger.

 

 

I doubt it.  If EB3.5 buyers are like my engineering friends, they bought the ecoboost for the torque.  A 5.8 would be similar to the 5.0 coyote in terms of output so no significant change in the buyers.  The 3.5 EB and power boost are in a different league when it comes to torque....410 vs 500 and 570.

 

Ram attracted buyers with the interior, particularly the large screen.  The ‘21 f150 closed that gap.  
GM has the 6.2, which is the most powerful non-specialty 1/2 ton v8 (lots of disclaimers there).  The power boost edges it out in hp and easily beats it in torque and fuel economy while delivering the nifty 7.2kw pro power feature.

 

A 6.8L or 7.3L Godzilla would bring in some customers.  But that would be because of it being more powerful than the competitor’s v8s, not the pushrods.

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, slemke said:

I doubt it.  If EB3.5 buyers are like my engineering friends, they bought the ecoboost for the torque.  A 5.8 would be similar to the 5.0 coyote in terms of output so no significant change in the buyers.  

Awww, I know that Ford is not going to anyway and,

Did you notice that the 5.8 comment was separated from the rest of my post?

That line was intended to encapsulate the feelings of several members on this forum

 who yearn for it, so I cleverly avoided using the 351 nomenclature......

[probowler]

I suppose the reason a 5.8 wouldn't really make sense at this time, considering you already have the 5.0, is that it wouldn't compete with the hellcat. I guess it could go up against the Hemi, but again the 5.0 already exists.

 

Would be cool though.

[CGIron]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:50 PM, ESP08 said:

Those engines are different sizes because they have different basic dimensions, like bore spacing and deck height, not because they are made from different materials. 
 

Are you seriously arguing the iron engine is smaller because it is CGI?  Come on man, do you know anything about engines at all?  

 

Obviusly you can´t see that the cylinderwalls are much thicker in the aluminiumblock without using a sliding caliper. That´s not without a reason, CGI can stand the PCP much better than aluminium and therefore the engine can be smaller in size with the same strength. Time will tell. I leave this issue teaching you. Google has the answers 

[slemke]

What would be cool is if the 6.8L is dohc 32 valve.  With a specific output of the voodoo v8, it would be a naturally aspirated hellcat competitor.