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Another new V8 ?


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1 hour ago, theoldwizard1 said:

One of the main design goals for the 7.3L was better low end torque/hp.  You are going backwards.

 

Modern engine machining lines can machine engines with different deck heights and bores.  The most important thing is to keep the bore spacing the same.

He's talking about the 6.8 that was mentioned by Jerry Diaz when discussing the Unifor contract.

We know that the 6.8 is real and will be built at Windsor and most likely on the 7.3 architecture.

Aternatively, the 6.2 Boss engine could be enlarged to 6.8 litres with possibly a different block?

 

Edited by jpd80
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2 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

I'm still wondering why the 7.3L is de-tuned so much for the E-Series.

 

That, and when are they going to bring back the E450 chassis ?

While there are different tunes, it looks like the power ratings  change significantly depending on the class of truck . The 310 HP version subs for a smaller displacement engine while giving better fuel economy under sustained load. The 350 HP version looks like the Medium Duty version but I could be wrong.....heavier duty versions don't rev as high, maybe for less exhaust heat under load?

Edited by jpd80
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How many more rpms should we expect with a shorter stroke design?  The 7.3l already has a shorter stroke than the 5.4l mod, and that revved to over 6500.  I tried to find the number last night but could only find max hp@6500 rpm.  Maybe it will be some sort of Rousch Yates special and hit 8500rpm like the hoonicorn.  410cu in is not too far off from 6.8l.  Twin turbos on e85.  1200hp?

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I am sure the 6.8 will be an evolution of the production and experimental V8. ‘S that came before it including the 777 engine.

From what I have been able to piece together, the 777 was a 7 liter V8 based off of the 6.2 SOC boss engine except it looked like a pushrod engine  with a single spark plug per cylinder and a much narrower cylinder head than the 6.2!

This might of been an experiment to see if enough power could be produced with a two valve push rod design? (800 hp)

The bore was 107mm and a stroke of 97mm at a deck height of 239mm.

I think the 777 was the basis of Godzilla V8 we have today!

Although the 7 liter could easily make the hp requirement, it fell short for low end torque.

I suspect at this stage ford already was committed on a 101 mm stroke much like the old 428 FE (close) and a bore around 105 mm.

As Mary speculated before, it was much easier to get to 7.3 (445cid) by increasing the bore to 107.2 mm from around 105 and avoiding having to increase the deck height above the 9.65” !

So the 6.8 will probably be a combination of pieces that already exist even if in XE experimental level.

the real question is will the block be aluminum or possibly CGI?

edselford

 

 

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On 2/27/2021 at 11:39 AM, slemke said:

How many more rpms should we expect with a shorter stroke design?  The 7.3l already has a shorter stroke than the 5.4l mod, and that revved to over 6500.  I tried to find the number last night but could only find max hp@6500 rpm.  Maybe it will be some sort of Rousch Yates special and hit 8500rpm like the hoonicorn.  410cu in is not too far off from 6.8l.  Twin turbos on e85.  
 

 

Sure but you’re comparing heavily modified engines to factory performance, how far would a stock 5.4 get with powdered rods and stock oil pump?

 

We’re still  not  sure what the bore and stroke the 6.8 will have.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

 

Sure but you’re comparing heavily modified engines to factory performance, how far would a stock 5.4 get with powdered rods and stock oil pump?

 

We’re still  not  sure what the bore and stroke the 6.8 will have.

 

 

The 6.8L will likely have a stroke shorter than the 7.3L, which is already shorter than the 5.4L stroke.  The 5.4L and 5.8L trinity engines peak hp was rated at 6500rpm, with the trinity having an 8 second over rev limit of 7000.  That’s a factory high performance engine.  No excuse for the 6.8L to be any less if it is indeed a high performance engine for Mustang and Raptor.  If the specific output is to meet or exceed the LT2, it will need to rev similarly high.  The lt2 max power is at 6450rpm.  The stroke is probably shorter, though.

 

The 410cu in hoonicorn engine is a purpose built engine from Rousch Yates racing.  Just wishful thinking of getting a factory motor with racing specs.

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18 hours ago, jpd80 said:

 

Sure but you’re comparing heavily modified engines to factory performance, how far would a stock 5.4 get with powdered rods and stock oil pump?

 

We’re still  not  sure what the bore and stroke the 6.8 will have.

 

 

 

Ford warrantied 7000 rpm with the 13/14 GT500 (5.8).   

Powdered rods and stock oil pump.  

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19 hours ago, edselford said:

I am sure the 6.8 will be an evolution of the production and experimental V8. ‘S that came before it including the 777 engine.

From what I have been able to piece together, the 777 was a 7 liter V8 based off of the 6.2 SOC boss engine except it looked like a pushrod engine  with a single spark plug per cylinder and a much narrower cylinder head than the 6.2!

This might of been an experiment to see if enough power could be produced with a two valve push rod design? (800 hp)

The bore was 107mm and a stroke of 97mm at a deck height of 239mm.

I think the 777 was the basis of Godzilla V8 we have today!

Although the 7 liter could easily make the hp requirement, it fell short for low end torque.

I suspect at this stage ford already was committed on a 101 mm stroke much like the old 428 FE (close) and a bore around 105 mm.

As Mary speculated before, it was much easier to get to 7.3 (445cid) by increasing the bore to 107.2 mm from around 105 and avoiding having to increase the deck height above the 9.65” !

So the 6.8 will probably be a combination of pieces that already exist even if in XE experimental level.

the real question is will the block be aluminum or possibly CGI?

edselford

 

 

 

The 777 7.0L was totally a modded Boss 6.2.  

It was SOHC and it had the same cylinder head width as the 6.2, just non-production valve covers that perhaps gave them a narrower and more polished appearance.  

 

777akaBoss.JPG

Boss62.JPG

 

I'd take a 6.8 Boss variation over a Godzilla variation any day.   

The Boss' splayed-valve/OHC layout makes it a much more capable performance platform.

 

Edited by ESP08
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15 hours ago, jpd80 said:

There’s nothing wrong with wishing, pretty sure that Brian Wolfe has baked in a lot of good design into the 7.3/6.8, things that well and truly exceed what was done with Miami, Condor and Trinity.

 

Godzilla is an underwhelming performance architecture, is pretty much as basic as basic gets...

Brian Wolfe hasn't been producing overly impressive power with his Godzilla builds either.  

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19 minutes ago, ESP08 said:

 

Godzilla is an underwhelming performance architecture, is pretty much as basic as basic gets...

Brian Wolfe hasn't been producing overly impressive power with his Godzilla builds either.  

Which are all based on the production truck parts, maybe a cam change and some head porting.

Perhaps the reason for that is what's yet to be released.......

 

And it is possible that the 6.2 could be transformed into a 6.8 using a different block and pistons,

it's not surprising that both the 6.2 and 7.3 engines have the same bore span and only slightly

 different deck heights.....

Edited by jpd80
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38 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Which are all based on the production truck parts, maybe a cam change and some head porting.

Perhaps the reason for that is what's yet to be released.......

 

And it is possible that the 6.2 could be transformed into a 6.8 using a different block and pistons,

it's not surprising that both the 6.2 and 7.3 engines have the same bore span and only slightly

 different deck heights.....

 

Brian's builds are high compression, aluminum rod builds taken to the reasonable max with only constraints really being the OEM block and cylinder head castings.  Brian isn't really leaving any stones unturned.  

Everything has been changed and upgraded and frankly he isn't producing amazing results even given those constraints.     

Certainly nothing Modular/Coyote/LS haven't been doing for a long time now.  

 

Brian's builds are also basically similar to every Modular and Coyote build ever in that he is stuck with using stock cylinder head castings.  

Cylinder heads are the 7.3's primary road block.  

 

This is a very basic Coyote build -- off the shelf Voodoo heads -- CJ intake -- shelf Comp cams. 

It made more power than Brian's aluminum rod Godzilla build.

 

 

 

Edited by ESP08
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23 minutes ago, ESP08 said:

 

The same 790 HP aluminum rod 7.3 with a Gen V Whipple 3.0.

It made 1450 crank HP, which I also consider to be underwhelming results.  

 

I've personally made more power with a stock block casting/stock crank 5.4 4V (GT500) and a TVS 2.65.  

 

They are still developing this engine. Running only 16.5 lbs of boost. Brian said he needs 20 - 21 lbs. This motor is a lot less complicated than a DOHC and can be packaged into anything like an LS. I think that is the attraction with it. I know I don't want to cut the shock towers out of my '67 Mustang to put a coyote in it.

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2 minutes ago, coupe3w said:

They are still developing this engine. Running only 16.5 lbs of boost. Brian said he needs 20 - 21 lbs. This motor is a lot less complicated than a DOHC and can be packaged into anything like an LS. I think that is the attraction with it. I know I don't want to cut the shock towers out of my '67 Mustang to put a coyote in it.

All a lot of folks wanted was a great uncomplicated  pushrod engine to retro into their vehicles,

the 7.3 will answer those prayers and maybe pick up a few sales that would have gone to the LS.

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1 hour ago, ESP08 said:

 

Brian's builds are high compression, aluminum rod builds taken to the reasonable max with only constraints really being the OEM block and cylinder head castings.  Brian isn't really leaving any stones unturned.  

Everything has been changed and upgraded and frankly he isn't producing amazing results even given those constraints.     

Certainly nothing Modular/Coyote/LS haven't been doing for a long time now.  

 

Brian's builds are also basically similar to every Modular and Coyote build ever in that he is stuck with using stock cylinder head castings.  

Cylinder heads are the 7.3's primary road block.  

 

This is a very basic Coyote build -- off the shelf Voodoo heads -- CJ intake -- shelf Comp cams. 

It made more power than Brian's aluminum rod Godzilla build.

 

 

 

Those coyote cylinder heads are magnificent.

Comparing the atmo 327 coyote with Brian's atmo 7.3, I noticed that the 7.3 had around 500 lb ft down at 4500 

where the coyote seems to be around 400 lb ft just below 5,000 but yeah from about 6,000 the two engines were 

making 550 lb ft and 575 lb ft respectively, the coyote is very impressive.

 

Not sure about VP C16 vs say E85, I thought E85 might be better for dyno runs than high octane gasoline,

I'd love to hear your experiences with fuels an power...

 

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4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Those coyote cylinder heads are magnificent.

Comparing the atmo 327 coyote with Brian's atmo 7.3, I noticed that the 7.3 had around 500 lb ft down at 4500 

where the coyote seems to be around 400 lb ft just below 5,000 but yeah from about 6,000 the two engines were 

making 550 lb ft and 575 lb ft respectively, the coyote is very impressive.

 

Not sure about VP C16 vs say E85, I thought E85 might be better for dyno runs than high octane gasoline,

I'd love to hear your experiences with fuels an power...

 

E85 gives a higher effective octane rating with direct injection, but I don’t know if it is enough to go from 108 of E85 to the 116 or more of the Cxx fuels.  Racers are going for any edge they can get.

 

I run E15 when I can find it for my ecoboost vehicles.  Slightly cheaper, better knock resistance, and fuel economy.  Premium has gotten crazy here.  Up to 60 cents per gallon markup over regular.  I’d like to see the higher octane fuels replaced with additional ethanol content to boost the octane.  Large decrease in greenhouse gas emissions too.  But, it seems to have fallen out of favor.

 

That naturally aspirated 327 cu in coyote sure sounded good.  8500 rpm redline.  850hp@7800 rpm.  The mod motor has come a long way from its 4.6l 190hp beginnings and being shunned by the racing crowd.  Blew right by the “411 hp is all you will ever see out of it”.

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20 hours ago, slemke said:

E85 gives a higher effective octane rating with direct injection, but I don’t know if it is enough to go from 108 of E85 to the 116 or more of the Cxx fuels.  Racers are going for any edge they can get.

Going E85 on a boosted engine requires a whole different tune a possibly different injectors.

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3 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

Going E85 on a boosted engine requires a whole different tune a possibly different injectors.

Yes, need to flow much more fuel with E85. Although the folks doing ecoboost tunes seem to manage quite well on E30-E50 without different injectors.  That might be approaching the limit.  E85 would allow for more boost, but the injectors aren’t capable of providing the added fuel, so they use an E50 or E30 blend.

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5 hours ago, slemke said:

Yes, need to flow much more fuel with E85. Although the folks doing ecoboost tunes seem to manage quite well on E30-E50 without different injectors.  That might be approaching the limit.  E85 would allow for more boost, but the injectors aren’t capable of providing the added fuel, so they use an E50 or E30 blend.

Sorry, I  dragged the thread more off topic asking about ethanol based fuels but thanks for the answer,

We have a few straight E85 Falcon turbo sixes making high horsepower, really love the stuff and it is 

the way to go with a dedicated high HP ride.  Appreciate that a 50-50 load of E85 and premium gasoline 

gets the job done without changing injector size so much that you can't use premium for lower boost driving.

 

Back on the 6.8, I think that Wolfe's mods on the 7.3 deliver a lot less power than some expect due to the heads.

As good as they may be, they're still basically a truck head and as we've seen over the years with the 302/351W,

having a good set of heads is mandatory to make high horsepower. Whatever short block is chosen, it must get 

a good set of heads regardless of whether it's NA or forced induction. What gives me optimism is that Ford now 

knows that it has to eclipse Ram's SC 6.2 Hemi V8 and possibly the NA 6.4 Hemi V8 below it, those engines need 

enough head room for power improvements to prevent a speedy response by the competition.

 

 

Edited by jpd80
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Guys, for heaven’s sake these first Godzilla efforts are just that, “early development first efforts”.

 

The Coyote is a magnificent engine but it is limited by its bore spacing. Yes it is making tremendous power in both factory (760 horsepower) and aftermarket (who knows?) but the lack of piston displacement takes away from some of these builds to be more “relaxed”.

 

By relaxed I mean reaching 5, 6 or 7 hundred horsepower with more low down grunt. 
 

Don’t get me wrong the Coyote is probably one of the greatest factory mass produced V8’s ever but “if only” it could have departed from the narrow Modular bore spacing so much more could’ve been done. 
 

One of the biggest changes could have been a lower deck height, larger bore, shorter stroke, shorter rod, shorter chains and a NARROWER ENGINE profile!

 

The Godzilla looks like a 351W on steroids. It will take a little time but it will make its mark in the Ford Performance world. 
 

Have you guys any idea the penetration the GM LS has in the performance world? I’m sure you do better than I 

 

The Trans Am series TA 2 division which is off the charts gaining in popularity is currently open to three different engines one from each manufacturer but in very short order will be moving to a “spec” LS motor for every car. 
 

NASCAR’s lower divisions from the trucks series down are ALL GM LS spec engines at least totally or optional moving towards total. 
 

Currently in the massively gaining in popularity off road world especially sand cars and rock hoppers are ALL GM LS powered evidenced by the recent “King of the Hammers” off road race where the only four cars out of hundreds that weren’t GM powered were the four factory Ford Bronco 4400’s. 
 

The issue facing anyone building a modern day performance vehicle like a rock hopper or a track day Cobra or a Late Model short track oval racer is the LS is fast becoming the ONLY option. 
 

The Coyote is more complex and much wider in physical size combined with it’s limited displacement. The Mopar hemi is also more complex and wider than absolutely necessary for some applications. The GM engine to me essentially takes everything that was good about the high port 302 and 351 Ford engines guys were racing in the 80’s and 90’s and put that into a fully modernized skirted block with better sealing and strength. 
 

The similarities ☝️are uncanny. 
 

The 6.8/7.3 Godzilla is the perfect antidote against complete GM domination of the performance world eventually. (If Ford will let that happen)

 

The Godzilla as I see it is one or two steps above the GM and the Mopar V8’s in basic architecture. The heads are capable of handling up to an inch or more of valve lift as they come from the factory. 
 

The bore centers are wider giving more material between the cylinders to enhance strength and cylinder head gasket clamping between the cylinders. 
 

The intake manifold and intake tract mimics the Coyote inlet system which is fantastic. 
 

The bottom end is very stout and may have an ultimate advantage over the other two. Ford went away from the 1:1 crank mounted oil pump and over to a chain driven pump that can be slowed down by gear ratios to a reasonable rpm when the engine’s operation range is elevated. 
 

I don’t see any compromise in the Godzilla that renders it a no go as a performance engine. The simple two valve (slightly canted) cylinder heads will be embraced by the aftermarket and you’ll see much higher performance aftermarket versions even full race billet examples. 
 

So long as the bottom end is up to the job and the basic top end is good you’ll see an explosion of interest in this engine and maybe some challenge to GM’s current utter dominance. 
 

 

Here is a shop that is built around the GM LS platform beginning to embrace the Godzilla engine. 
 

 

https://www.mastmotorsports.com/collections/factory-mast-godzilla-products

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My current daily driver is an '18 F-150 with the gen 3 Coyote. It's both the best thing about the truck and the worst thing about the truck. I love the power and exhaust sound of the V-8. Even the fuel mileage is acceptable. However, Ford did a horrible job on NVH with this generation of the Coyote. There are times when it makes noises at idle that anyone standing within 20 feet of it would swear it was a diesel. As far as I know Ford has never admitted that there is a problem nor has anyone been able to identify and remedy the problem(s). There were multiple changes to the Coyote between the gen 2 and gen 3 that could be the source of the problem but, again, I don't know if that has been identified. To be honest, I gave up reading all the negative posts on other websites about customers' lack of help with this issue through dealer service departments because it became obvious to me that there was not going to be any resolution. Maybe there has been some recent discovery and fix but I seriously doubt it. My personal opinion is that it has something to do with the camshaft drives but that's just a guess. There have been times when it sounds fine (no rattling sounds coming from the engine) but most of the time it just sounds like cheap crap when idling. I guess stop/start has more than one benefit. ?

 

Anyway, the one thing that might give me a reason to trade my low mileage '18 would be if Ford offered some version of the Godzilla in the F-150. I know there have been some major changes again on the '21 Coyote (like cylinder deactivation) and hopefully the NVH issues were solved as well. I just stopped paying attention to the issue because it didn't appear to me that there would ever be a fix for my truck. 

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