theoldwizard Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) I have mentioned this in the past, but I will give this topic its own thread. The EcoBoost technology has a serious problem. CAFE and EPA have proposed emission standards (maybe already in place ?) that will hurt EcoBoost. Ford did not add 8 more injectors to the Coyote just because they thought is was a "cool idea". Those port injectors (which are used more than 50% of the time) are there to reduce "particulate emissions". Yes, the same particulate emission that diesel engines use a particulate trap (and regeneration cycle) have to deal with. The new 6.8L is the first nail in the coffin. Edited November 2, 2020 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 10 minutes ago, theoldwizard said: I have mentioned this in the past, but I will give this topic its own thread. The EcoBoost technology has a serious problem. CAFE and EPA have proposed emission standards (maybe already in place ?) that will hurt EcoBoost. Ford did not add8 more injectors to the Coyote just because they thought is was a "cool idea". Those port injectors (which are used more than 50% of the time) are there to reduce "particulate emissions". Yes, the same particulate emission that diesel engines use a particulate trap (and regeneration cycle) have to deal with. The new 6.8L is the first nail in the coffin. WTF are you talking about? The Coyote is a V8 Port injection was added to the 3.5L Ecoboost because they had fuel delivery problems (adding more power) because the first gen Bosh units fell on their faces after a certain power range. DFI also has issues with carbon buildup on the back of the heads. Yet if Ecoboosts had such a huge problem, why hasn't port injection been added to I4 or the nano range of V6s to help with this supposed emission standards? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpfarrell Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 I'm not sure I've ever read 7 more unrelated sentences than those in the original post. Can you offer some clarification? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 58 minutes ago, Gpfarrell said: I'm not sure I've ever read 7 more unrelated sentences than those in the original post. Can you offer some clarification? LOL, I had the same reaction. Particular emission affects all engines, not just EcoBoost. All gasoline engines will need particular filters in Euro 7 and the next phase of CARB emission. CO2 emission is what's driving the move towards smaller turbo charged engines. That's not going to change because the saying "there is no replacement for displacement" is also true for CO2 emission... the only way to reduce it is to make engines smaller. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 7 hours ago, silvrsvt said: WTF are you talking about? The Coyote is a V8 Major BRAIN FART on me !! 7 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Port injection was added to the 3.5L Ecoboost because they had fuel delivery problems (adding more power) because the first gen Bosh units fell on their faces after a certain power range. DFI also has issues with carbon buildup on the back of the heads. That is what the "word on the street is". Trust me, I have talked to experienced engine enhineers. 7 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Yet if Ecoboosts had such a huge problem, why hasn't port injection been added to I4 or the nano range of V6s to help with this supposed emission standards? Smaller engine, lower particulate outpu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Ford has just added cylinder deactivation to the 5.0 Coyote. TOW, Direct injection was added to the Coyote to better control combustion, only about 10% if fuel goes through the direct injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT90SC Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 (edited) On 11/2/2020 at 9:23 AM, silvrsvt said: Port injection was added to the 3.5L Ecoboost because they had fuel delivery problems (adding more power) because the first gen Bosh units fell on their faces after a certain power range. DFI also has issues with carbon buildup on the back of the heads. Yet if Ecoboosts had such a huge problem, why hasn't port injection been added to I4 or the nano range of V6s to help with this supposed emission standards? Port was put back on for emissions, primarily NOx and HC/particulate. In some operating modes port is cleaner, in some, direct is. A mixture of the two is used for still other operating conditions. The fact that port cleans the valves is just a lucky byproduct. I can't think of a current production turbo v6 that doesn't have both. 3.5 and 2.7 definitely do. I know the new 1.5L three cylinder has both. I think the 2.0 finally got them too. Edited November 3, 2020 by YT90SC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 12 minutes ago, YT90SC said: I can't think of a current production turbo v6 that doesn't have both. 3.5 and 2.7 definitely do. I know the new 1.5L three cylinder has both. I think the 2.0 finally got them too. The 2.7L has it in the Bronco...when I looked it up, I was looking at the F-series when it first came out the 2.3L Ecoboost does not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 I think the term EcoBoost has run its course. Everyone now has small dispacement turbo boosted engines. Maybe just call it Turboboost. For example, the Ecosport is neither sporty nor fuel efficient. Hybrids are eco friendly, but turbo boosted engines are not even close compared to hybrids where the market is eventually going. Right now, Escape, Explorer, Aviator, F-150, and soon Corsair have hybrid models. Add in EV Mach E. EcoBoost has become dated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 I think the 2.0, 2.3, 2.7 and 3.5 ecoboosts work very well, especially the latest generation. But I'm not sure the 1.0, 1.5 I3 and 1.5 I4 and the 1.6 are better compared to a good NA 2.0L-2.5L engine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 22 minutes ago, FordBuyer said: I think the term EcoBoost has run its course. Everyone now has small dispacement turbo boosted engines. Maybe just call it Turboboost. For example, the Ecosport is neither sporty nor fuel efficient. Hybrids are eco friendly, but turbo boosted engines are not even close compared to hybrids where the market is eventually going. Right now, Escape, Explorer, Aviator, F-150, and soon Corsair have hybrid models. Add in EV Mach E. EcoBoost has become dated. Ford has a lot of brand equity with EcoBoost. I think any turbo engine they produce will keep that moniker. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 29 minutes ago, akirby said: I think the 2.0, 2.3, 2.7 and 3.5 ecoboosts work very well, especially the latest generation. But I'm not sure the 1.0, 1.5 I3 and 1.5 I4 and the 1.6 are better compared to a good NA 2.0L-2.5L engine. I'd take a 2.5 hybrid over a 1.5 EB everytime. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader 10 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 10 minutes ago, jpd80 said: I'd take a 2.5 hybrid over a 1.5 EB everytime. Or the non-hybrid version. The 2.5 is a great engine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 Just now, Trader 10 said: Or the non-hybrid version. The 2.5 is a great engine. Especially these days with eight and nine speed autos for the FWDs What I was hinting at was the way Toyota RAV4 is running away with sales while new Escape struggles. The only basic difference I can see is the engines, a basic four cylinder and a hybrid/PHEV. I don't think that the three cylinder Ecoboost stands out enough compared to the 2.5 RAV4. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted November 3, 2020 Share Posted November 3, 2020 I think some European gasoline cars already have particulate filters built into their catalytic converters. On a gas engine, particulate filters do not need regeneration like a diesel, the exhaust temp. in the converter is hot enough to make them self-cleaning. I don't think the Ecoboost engines are necessarily dead. But diesels are....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 4 hours ago, jpd80 said: What I was hinting at was the way Toyota RAV4 is running away with sales while new Escape struggles. The only basic difference I can see is the engines, a basic four cylinder and a hybrid/PHEV. I don't think that the three cylinder Ecoboost stands out enough compared to the 2.5 RAV4. Good points jpd80 sir. Could the sales struggles be due to production constraints on Escape Hybrid? My salesman at Autonation Ford Fort Worth told me that Escape Hybrids sell fairly quickly, and he could easily sell more if Ford increased allocation of the hybrid models. Especially SE Sport Hybrid. The 2021 Escape order guide says that Ford is expanding availability of hybrid to the SE and SEL trims. So maybe Ford will get more Escape hybrids to dealerships once the 2021 models start shipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 2 hours ago, rperez817 said: Good points jpd80 sir. Could the sales struggles be due to production constraints on Escape Hybrid? My salesman at Autonation Ford Fort Worth told me that Escape Hybrids sell fairly quickly, and he could easily sell more if Ford increased allocation of the hybrid models. Especially SE Sport Hybrid. The 2021 Escape order guide says that Ford is expanding availability of hybrid to the SE and SEL trims. So maybe Ford will get more Escape hybrids to dealerships once the 2021 models start shipping. I'm thinking either limited supply of battery packs or perhaps the trim mix is slightly off. Last time I looked, there were a lot of SEs around, maybe that carries through to hybrids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 3 hours ago, rperez817 said: Good points jpd80 sir. Could the sales struggles be due to production constraints on Escape Hybrid? My salesman at Autonation Ford Fort Worth told me that Escape Hybrids sell fairly quickly, and he could easily sell more if Ford increased allocation of the hybrid models. Especially SE Sport Hybrid. The 2021 Escape order guide says that Ford is expanding availability of hybrid to the SE and SEL trims. So maybe Ford will get more Escape hybrids to dealerships once the 2021 models start shipping. It seems to me that Ford needs to get Escape hybrid, plug in production up to at least 75,000/year if they expect to sell over 200,000 Escapes/year. If not, then maybe 175,000 tops. Also read an article about a rumored Escape ST possibly. The Escape is a good handling CUV and the 2.3 turbo would make the Escape more interesting. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 4 hours ago, FordBuyer said: It seems to me that Ford needs to get Escape hybrid, plug in production up to at least 75,000/year if they expect to sell over 200,000 Escapes/year. If not, then maybe 175,000 tops. Also read an article about a rumored Escape ST possibly. The Escape is a good handling CUV and the 2.3 turbo would make the Escape more interesting. I'm actually surprised that there's no ST Escape, the 2.3 EB is already in the Corsair so not a big leap. We've spoken about hybrid Escapes before and I agree, it's something that Ford should press harder. Battery supply constraints could be the big issue.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 10 hours ago, jpd80 said: Last time I looked, there were a lot of SEs around, maybe that carries through to hybrids? At Autonation Ford dealerships, it's the opposite situation with the Escape Hybrid. There are more Hybrid Titanium in dealer new car inventory than Hybrid SE Sport. Here are the numbers. 886 Escapes in inventory across all Autonation Ford dealership locations. 96 S 423 SE 154 SEL 26 Titanium 2.0L 82 SE Sport Hybrid 102 Titanium Hybrid Hybrid models have become more widely available in the past couple months, which is good. I think by 2021, SE + SEL Hybrid Escapes will outnumber Titanium Hybrid Escapes at dealers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, FordBuyer said: I think the term EcoBoost has run its course. Everyone now has small dispacement turbo boosted engines. Maybe just call it Turboboost. For example, the Ecosport is neither sporty nor fuel efficient. Hybrids are eco friendly, but turbo boosted engines are not even close compared to hybrids where the market is eventually going. Right now, Escape, Explorer, Aviator, F-150, and soon Corsair have hybrid models. Add in EV Mach E. EcoBoost has become dated. Yes sir FordBuyer. The other thing about the EcoBoost name is that these engines are "Eco" OR "Boost", not "Eco" AND "Boost". The early EcoBoost engines were notorious for poor fuel economy under medium to high load conditions. The newer versions are better, but you still have to pay more attention to your driving style with an EcoBoost powered vehicle compared to a normally aspirated one to get good fuel economy. I adjusted my driving style after replacing '04 Ranger with 2.3L normally aspirated engine and manual transmission with '19 Ranger with 2.3L EcoBoost and automatic. Edited November 4, 2020 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 5 hours ago, jpd80 said: I'm actually surprised that there's no ST Escape, the 2.3 EB is already in the Corsair so not a big leap. We've spoken about hybrid Escapes before and I agree, it's something that Ford should press harder. Battery supply constraints could be the big issue.... You'd think with Fusion hybrid and C-Max production ending, that they'd have enough to go around without limiting Escape supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 11 minutes ago, rmc523 said: You'd think with Fusion hybrid and C-Max production ending, that they'd have enough to go around without limiting Escape supply. But is it the same type of batteries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 2 hours ago, akirby said: But is it the same type of batteries? My Escape has a brief case sized battery under the rear seat resulting in not much of a loss of cargo space. The battery in the Fusion/CMax was bulkier and I would say less powerful. I know I'm getting almost 50mpg in my Escape and have not heard any complaints about lower than advertised mpg's like the CMax. Have heard lots of new CRV hybrid customers are complaining about lower than 40mpg. So whatever battery supplier Ford is using in the Escape, it's a good, compact sized one mounted low in the chassis resulting in good handling. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT90SC Posted November 4, 2020 Share Posted November 4, 2020 45 minutes ago, FordBuyer said: My Escape has a brief case sized battery under the rear seat resulting in not much of a loss of cargo space. The battery in the Fusion/CMax was bulkier and I would say less powerful. I know I'm getting almost 50mpg in my Escape and have not heard any complaints about lower than advertised mpg's like the CMax. Have heard lots of new CRV hybrid customers are complaining about lower than 40mpg. So whatever battery supplier Ford is using in the Escape, it's a good, compact sized one mounted low in the chassis resulting in good handling. That's the difference between Ford Gen 3 and Gen 4 hybrids, battery tech and the useage there of. I have a non-Energi C-Max. It isn't hard to beat advertised mileage, but you must drive to. 3 hours ago, akirby said: But is it the same type of batteries? No. But all the new RWD architecture are Gen 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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