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Let's Rename the Explorer: Torpedo!


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2 hours ago, FR739 said:


I’ll sum it up up for you then. 
 

-CR sends surveys to consumers.  
-They received 329,000 responses. 
-All data was collected in the 2020 calendar year 

-Each model has between 200 and 300 samples on average. 
-They weight “major” issues heavier than others (vehicle being taken out of service for repair)

 

And let’s be honest.  It’s not one source, specifically for the Chicago vehicles.  There’s a member here that shared his experiences with those vehicles from a service standpoint (must be a tech or service manager).  Their username slips my memory right now.  

 

 


Im not talking about the Chicago vehicles. Those issues are very well documented and it's beating a dead horse at this point. I'm talking about the alleged issues with Escape and Corsair that nobody has talked about outside of apparently Consumer Reports. 

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44 minutes ago, akirby said:


Yes they only survey subscribers who may not be the most objective.  But the sample size is 200-300 out of 180k vehicles which is tiny.

Absolutely my point and as we’ve seen recently, the types of people you’re surveying can skew the data received, those folks that are registered with CP are already motivated to report findings, I tend to believe many more owners tend to let things slide even though they know their car isn’t perfect.that could be because many folks now lease with guaranteed buy back prices and know they’re not stuck with it past three or four years.

Edited by jpd80
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1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


Im not talking about the Chicago vehicles. Those issues are very well documented and it's beating a dead horse at this point. I'm talking about the alleged issues with Escape and Corsair that nobody has talked about outside of apparently Consumer Reports. 


I wish I could remember the posters username but it’s a person here who, if I remember right, was recently talking about the “A clutch” on the new Explorer transmission being bad and needing replacement.  
 

If someone knows who I’m talking about get them in here because I’m genuinely interested if they are seeing Escape and Corsair issues as well.  
———————————

As for CR, if you don’t like their methodology then I would encourage anyone to go out and conduct your own survey.  Yes 200-300 out of hundreds of thousands isn’t a lot but it’s a good sample size and at least gives you an idea. I find it very unlikely that all of the CR respondents had faulty vehicles while The other 179,750 vehicles sold were flawless.  

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5 minutes ago, FR739 said:

I wish I could remember the posters username but it’s a person here who, if I remember right, was recently talking about the “A clutch” on the new Explorer transmission being bad and needing replacement.  
 

If someone knows who I’m talking about get them in here because I’m genuinely interested if they are seeing Escape and Corsair issues as well.  


I think it's safe to say he hasn't because he would have said so already. He's not shy about it and unlike me, he's still anonymous to the company. 

 

6 minutes ago, FR739 said:

As for CR, if you don’t like their methodology then I would encourage anyone to go out and conduct your own survey.  Yes 200-300 out of hundreds of thousands isn’t a lot but it’s a good sample size and at least gives you an idea. I find it very unlikely that all of the CR respondents had faulty vehicles while The other 179,750 vehicles sold were flawless.  


Oh FFS let me say this again in bold print so maybe it gets through to someone
 

IT IS NOT CONSUMER REPORTS METHODOLOGY I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH. THAT IS WHAT IT IS EVEN IF IT IS FLAWED AND/OR A SMALL SAMPLE SIZE. WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IS THIS ASSUMPTION THAT THE ESCAPE/CORSAIR HAS MAJOR ISSUES WHEN LITERALLY NOBODY ELSE IS REPORTING ANY WIDESPREAD PROBLEMS AT ALL. 

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2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Im not talking about the Chicago vehicles. Those issues are very well documented and it's beating a dead horse at this point. I'm talking about the alleged issues with Escape and Corsair that nobody has talked about outside of apparently Consumer Reports. 

 

To your point, the new Escape earned the top spot in the JD Powers APEAL study, and was included in the Ward's Auto ten-best users experience survey.

 

"The all-new Ford Escape has earned recognition from two prestigious automotive industry organizations this week, taking home the top spot among compact SUVs in the J.D. Power 2020 APEAL Study and being crowned a Wards 10 Best User Experiences honoree"

 

https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/all-new-ford-escape-earns-top-spot-in-j-d-power-apeal-study-and-wards-10-best-ux-win/

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

I still remember whe CR wouldn't recommend the Ford Probe, but did the Mazda version built st same plant, platform and drivetrain. I believe CR did the same to the Mazda derived Escort vs the Mazda version. That's when I didn't trust CR conclusions anymore. 

I believe the Toyota Corolla and Geo prizm had a similar discrepancy.  The best though, was when they harped on GM for rebadging everything and then came up with drastically different reliability for essentially the same car from 2 or 3 different brands.  That was sometime in the late 80’s.  I quit reading CR after that.

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48 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

To your point, the new Escape earned the top spot in the JD Powers APEAL study, and was included in the Ward's Auto ten-best users experience survey.

 

"The all-new Ford Escape has earned recognition from two prestigious automotive industry organizations this week, taking home the top spot among compact SUVs in the J.D. Power 2020 APEAL Study and being crowned a Wards 10 Best User Experiences honoree"

 

https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/all-new-ford-escape-earns-top-spot-in-j-d-power-apeal-study-and-wards-10-best-ux-win/

 

 

 

 

 

Well this can't be.  I was told Escape was a horrible POS that should be driven off a cliff immediately by "reviewers" .

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5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

So let me get this right, the data comes from CR members and subscribers, not the entire sales population?

 

what actual sample size do they use?

 

Yes sir jpd80. Here is what CR says in its FAQ.

 

Where Is the Data From?

"Consumer Reports obtains its reliability data from the Auto Surveys sent to Consumer Reports members each year. In all, we received responses on about 329,000 vehicles in our 2020 surveys, detailing 2000 to 2020 models.

 

How Many Samples Do You Have of Each Model?
A typical model has about 200 to 300 samples for each model year. When we have small sample sizes for models, we may use brand history and the reliability of similar models that may share major components to determine our predictions. Since 2015, we use an online questionnaire exclusively instead of our previous mix of electronic and paper surveys from members. That change shrank our respondent pool, but the Internet-only surveys allow us to ask more in-depth questions and solicit detailed comments about problems.

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1 hour ago, mackinaw said:

To your point, the new Escape earned the top spot in the JD Powers APEAL study, and was included in the Ward's Auto ten-best users experience survey.

 

JD Power APEAL is completely different in nature compared to CR's reliability survey. The first one measures "owners’ emotional attachment and level of excitement with their new vehicle across 37 attributes, ranging from the sense of comfort and luxury they feel when climbing into the driver’s seat to the feeling they get when they step on the accelerator." The second identifies "problems that owners considered serious (because of cost, failure, safety, or downtime)."

 

APEAL is more about "things gone right" and CR reliability survey is more about "things gone wrong". It is quite possible for vehicle models that score highly in APEAL to have below average reliability. Examples other than Ford Escape include Chevy Blazer and Honda Odyssey.

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16 hours ago, FR739 said:

-CR sends surveys to consumers.  
-They received 329,000 responses. 
-All data was collected in the 2020 calendar year 

-Each model has between 200 and 300 samples on average. 
-They weight “major” issues heavier than others (vehicle being taken out of service for repair)

-CR only sends surveys to thier members and the surveys are voluntary.

-They only received 329,000 responses for all makes and models sold in the US... Toyota sold more Camry's than that in 2019.

-All data was collected in the 2020 calender year, but model years are different for each vehicle and the calender year isn't over yet.  It asks for problems that occurred over the last twelve months, so it doesn't identify trends like early launch problems that improve over time.

-The 'average' number of samples for each model is 200 to 300, but they go as low as 100.

-CR has been asked by other groups to provide the algorithms they use to weigh thier results and rank the vehicles but they always refuse.  They basically say consumers don't need to know, while the other groups say consumers have a right to know to help make more informed decisions and as a nonprofit they must be transparent. 

 

Edited by CoolScoop
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4 hours ago, FR739 said:


I wish I could remember the posters username but it’s a person here who, if I remember right, was recently talking about the “A clutch” on the new Explorer transmission being bad and needing replacement.  
 

If someone knows who I’m talking about get them in here because I’m genuinely interested if they are seeing Escape and Corsair issues as well.  
———————————

As for CR, if you don’t like their methodology then I would encourage anyone to go out and conduct your own survey.  Yes 200-300 out of hundreds of thousands isn’t a lot but it’s a good sample size and at least gives you an idea. I find it very unlikely that all of the CR respondents had faulty vehicles while The other 179,750 vehicles sold were flawless.  

Our resident transmission person, YT90?

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2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Our resident transmission person, YT90?


Yes!!  I looked up their username and found the thread where they mentioned the extensive issues with Chicago vehicles.  
 

They seem like they know their stuff.  Be interesting to see was they have to say. 

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4 hours ago, FR739 said:


Yes!!  I looked up their username and found the thread where they mentioned the extensive issues with Chicago vehicles.  
 

They seem like they know their stuff.  Be interesting to see was they have to say. 


I already told you he would have said something already. Unless I missed it he's been quiet about it. Unlike me, he's still anonymous to the company so he doesn't have to watch what he says so he can be brutally honest.  

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22 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


If it's really that big of an issue why hasn't literally ANYONE else published a piece about it? 

 

I don't follow what you are saying.....CR pushes out the exact survey to a sample of the population that purchased new cars and gets info back from the consumer. If these issues were not a big deal, than the survey would reflect that. I am pretty particular about squeaks, rattles, annoying software, etc. and would certainly want those issues addressed on a dealer visit. 

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1 hour ago, kyle said:

 

I don't follow what you are saying.....CR pushes out the exact survey to a sample of the population that purchased new cars and gets info back from the consumer. If these issues were not a big deal, than the survey would reflect that. I am pretty particular about squeaks, rattles, annoying software, etc. and would certainly want those issues addressed on a dealer visit. 


NO OTHER PUBLICATION HAS MENTIONED IT. WTF IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT? 

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4 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


NO OTHER PUBLICATION HAS MENTIONED IT. WTF IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT? 


Allow me to translate.

 

If the Escape problems were so bad it would have been reported somewhere already or at least acknowledged here by technicians or in other forums, yet I don’t recall hearing anything either.

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16 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


Im not talking about the Chicago vehicles. Those issues are very well documented and it's beating a dead horse at this point. I'm talking about the alleged issues with Escape and Corsair that nobody has talked about outside of apparently Consumer Reports. 

Yeah, that really came out of left field. Most of the negative articles I have read about mid sized CUV is about Rav4 fuel tanks, suspension problems, and CRV hybrid fuel mileage disappointments. Very little about new Escape other than a couple minor recalls and bitching about supposed cheap looking interior materials. Also, I have had no trouble with my infotainment system. Very responsive, good resolution, and easy to use. Hated the Crosstrek infotainment system.

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21 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


Never heard of that website before but thanks for being the one person to provide reasonable evidence instead of parroting what others have said and not backing it up. 

 

No problem.  I fully expect a certain Moderator to ban me from this site, since anything short of full-out cheer-leading isn't allowed,,,,,

 

HRG

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24 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

The TSB's are always interesting reading,,,,,

 

https://www.carcomplaints.com/Ford/Escape/2020/tsbs/

 

HRG


73 by my count.  But the site itself says 44.  I can’t figure out why there is a discrepancy.  Recalls are listed at 4 but the NHTSA database has the 2020 Escape at 5. 


For the Explorer, that website has TSBs listed at 70 and recalls at 6.  The NHTSA has Explorer recalls listed at 8.  

 

 

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36 minutes ago, FR739 said:

73 by my count.  But the site itself says 44.  I can’t figure out why there is a discrepancy.

There are usually quite a few TSBs with different numbers that are repeats for some reason.  Some are updates to a previous while others are just repeats, plus some cover multiple vehicles.  Most TSBs start out saying some of the listed vehicles may exhibit the problem... so they may not be wide spread issues.  Because of all the electronics in cars now, many TSBs seem to be software related issues that are easily fixed with an update to the PCM or one of the many other modules.  TSBs are a good thing, they make life easier for technicians and also for home mechanics trying to identify and correct an issue after the warranty has expired... they've helped me many times over the years.

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4 minutes ago, CoolScoop said:

There are usually quite a few TSBs with different numbers that are repeats for some reason.  Some are updates to the previous while others are just repeats, plus some cover multiple vehicles.  Most TSBs start out saying some of the listed vehicles may exhibit the problem... so they may not be wide spread issues.  Because of all the electronics in cars now, many TSBs seem to be software related that are easily fixed with an update to PCM or one of the many other modules.  TSBs are a good thing, they make life easier for technicians and also for home mechanics trying to identify and correct an issue when the warranty has expired... they've helped me many times.

Well, the 2020 Escape is a first year vehicle.....TSB's are expected and lessen as factory adjusts. I know my Escape was built in February. Tri coat metallic paint job is excellent and panel fit is just good. Overall, looks to me like 2020 Escape is pretty decent for a first year vehicle. No big issues or deal breakers like faulty fuel tanks that can't be filled with no fix. If CR is calling Escape a disaster like the Explorer launch, then they are drawing faulty conclusions. My Escape is proof of that built in February of this year. And a complicated hybrid with lots of options to boot.

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