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Let's Rename the Explorer: Torpedo!


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12 minutes ago, CoolScoop said:

TSBs are a good thing, they make life easier for technicians and also for home mechanics trying to identify and correct an issue after the warranty has expired... they've helped me many times over the years.

 

Yes sir CoolScoop, I've used TSBs for DIY repairs many times. Here is a good article from Consumer Reports on how to get them free. https://www.consumerreports.org/car-repair-maintenance/how-to-get-a-technical-service-bulletin-tsb-for-free/

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58 minutes ago, FR739 said:


73 by my count.  But the site itself says 44.  I can’t figure out why there is a discrepancy.  Recalls are listed at 4 but the NHTSA database has the 2020 Escape at 5. 


For the Explorer, that website has TSBs listed at 70 and recalls at 6.  The NHTSA has Explorer recalls listed at 8.  

 

 


I read through a few of them and some are updates of older ones so I'm guessing they didn't count those as new ones. Like Akirby said, that seems like nothing too far out for the ordinary to me especially since it looks like the majority is for electronic modules that could happen to any automaker. 

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16 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

If CR is calling Escape a disaster like the Explorer launch, then they are drawing faulty conclusions.

 

CR is not doing that, they are simply summarizing reliability data from their survey which reports the relative likelihood of specific vehicles experiencing problems compared to the average for all vehicles in the survey. 2020 Escape is much worse than average based on that data.

 

As mentioned in CR's FAQ, some 2020 Escape owners could be lucky and experience few or no problems at all. You are one of those lucky owners.

Quote

"Even in the most unreliable models, some individual car owners are lucky and experience few or no problems during the 12 months covered by the survey."

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2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:


NO OTHER PUBLICATION HAS MENTIONED IT. WTF IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT? 

 

Got it (lower caps)....agree or disagree....this is what the data is showing. Now is it a major issue or are their competitors just doing a very good job relative to Ford? Who knows, but just because you haven't heard about it does not mean that their is not raw analytical data to support the analysis. All lower caps......

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All I know is that talking to my Lincoln service manager, he has lots to say about early problems with the Aviator -- and some lesser continuing issues. He described the Corsair as the smoothest, most trouble-free launch Lincoln has had in his memory. It could just be that CR's Corsair sample is off. These things can happen, especially if the sample is at the small end, which it most likely is.

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2 hours ago, CoolScoop said:

There are usually quite a few TSBs with different numbers that are repeats for some reason.  Some are updates to a previous while others are just repeats, plus some cover multiple vehicles.  Most TSBs start out saying some of the listed vehicles may exhibit the problem... so they may not be wide spread issues.  Because of all the electronics in cars now, many TSBs seem to be software related issues that are easily fixed with an update to the PCM or one of the many other modules.  TSBs are a good thing, they make life easier for technicians and also for home mechanics trying to identify and correct an issue after the warranty has expired... they've helped me many times over the years.


Sure.  That makes sense.  Thanks!!

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1 hour ago, kyle said:

 

Got it (lower caps)....agree or disagree....this is what the data is showing. Now is it a major issue or are their competitors just doing a very good job relative to Ford? Who knows, but just because you haven't heard about it does not mean that their is not raw analytical data to support the analysis. All lower caps......

This is a dangerous narrative, to assume that extrapolation of such a small sample represents issues in 180,000 Escapes.

 

6 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

Is it just me or does it seem that this subject is being beat to death with a lot of speculation, opinions, etc?

This is what happens on the internet, certain ideas an perceptions are pushed and magnified until they become fact

and by golly, when enough folks read about it, well there's no smoke without fire so it has to be true, yes?

 

 

Edited by jpd80
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3 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

This is a dangerous narrative, to assume that extrapolation

 

This is what happens on the internet, certain ideas an perceptions are pushed and magnified until they become fact

and by golly, when enough folks read about it, well there's no smoke without fire so it has to be true, yes?

 

 

 

Your two statements conflict each other.....either way, you can choose to believe what CR has stated or not....and to Fuzzy's point-he's not hearing of any other issues-maybe it is isolated, I'm not sure....but those are opinions. I wish that we were talking about how good Ford did on this ranking and other quality studies.  I also feel that Ford knows they cannot fuck up any upcoming launches-the stakes are way to big....hope I'm right. 

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11 minutes ago, kyle said:

 

Your two statements conflict each other.....

No they don't, look again with fresh eyes.....l hadn't completed first post, sorry, I realised that and finished the sentence.

The second was having a bit of fun with internet reversion.....

Edited by jpd80
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8 minutes ago, kyle said:

 

Your two statements conflict each other.....either way, you can choose to believe what CR has stated or not....and to Fuzzy's point-he's not hearing of any other issues-maybe it is isolated, I'm not sure....but those are opinions. I wish that we were talking about how good Ford did on this ranking and other quality studies.  I also feel that Ford knows they cannot fuck up any upcoming launches-the stakes are way to big....hope I'm right. 


If it was a bigger sample size with JD Power and we were hearing horror stories from the dealership techs or actual owners like Explorer and Aviator then it would be easier to believe that it was a significant issue.

 

CR data should always be taken with a grain of salt based on past inconsistencies, they way they survey and the fact that they won’t share any details.

 

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20 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

Is it just me or does it seem that this subject is being beat to death with a lot of speculation, opinions, etc?

To beat it to death, I would have never bought a 2020 Explorer after reading about it's terrible launch, but I would consider a 2021 Explorer. As for the 2020 Escape, very little negative compared to the Rav4 and Ford has good reputation with hybrids. Never expect any good news from CR about Ford products as they gave the Escape Hybrid a low overall number below 70 which I knew about before buying as I put very little credibility into their scores.

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1 hour ago, akirby said:

CR data should always be taken with a grain of salt based on past inconsistencies, they way they survey and the fact that they won’t share any details.

 

Personally, I put more stock in the JD Powers quality ratings than CR, but I don't dismiss the CR rankings either.  

 

Maybe Farley will do what Mulally did.  After a bad CR ranking, Mulally took several Ford staffers down to CR headquarters and asked them why they ranked Ford vehicles so poorly.  I guess the Ford staffers took notes, CR ranked Ford vehicles more highly after the meeting.

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12 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

Personally, I put more stock in the JD Powers quality ratings than CR, but I don't dismiss the CR rankings either.  

 

Maybe Farley will do what Mulally did.  After a bad CR ranking, Mulally took several Ford staffers down to CR headquarters and asked them why they ranked Ford vehicles so poorly.  I guess the Ford staffers took notes, CR ranked Ford vehicles more highly after the meeting.


He also took some engineers to understand why CR complained about a certain feature (rear hatch on the edge maybe).  The engineers started arguing with what the person was trying to tell them justifying their design.  Mulally interrupted them and told the stop listening to respond and start listening to understand.  
 

CR should not be ignored but also shouldn’t be blindly accepted.

 

Nobody is arguing that Ford quality is great or that the Explorer/Aviator don’t have serious issues.  But some people overreact and exaggerate the problems and impacts.

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1 hour ago, FordBuyer said:

As for the 2020 Escape, very little negative compared to the Rav4 and Ford has good reputation with hybrids.

 

Consumer Reports actually gave 2020 Escape Hybrid SE Sport a significantly higher road test score (82) than 2020 RAV4 Hybrid XLE (72). Mainly because Escape Hybrid provides a smoother ride, quieter gasoline engine, and better braking than RAV4 Hybrid. The main downside to 2020 Escape is its below average reliability. And that will probably improve in 2021.

 

For customers who don't place a high priority on reliability, Escape Hybrid is the better choice. Car and Driver also rated Escape Hybrid higher than RAV4 Hybrid when it did a comparison 1 year ago. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a29878756/2020-ford-escape-hybrid-vs-2019-toyota-rav4-hybrid/

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33 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Consumer Reports actually gave 2020 Escape Hybrid SE Sport a significantly higher road test score (82) than 2020 RAV4 Hybrid XLE (72). Mainly because Escape Hybrid provides a smoother ride, quieter gasoline engine, and better braking than RAV4 Hybrid. The main downside to 2020 Escape is its below average reliability. And that will probably improve in 2021.

 

For customers who don't place a high priority on reliability, Escape Hybrid is the better choice. Car and Driver also rated Escape Hybrid higher than RAV4 Hybrid when it did a comparison 1 year ago. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a29878756/2020-ford-escape-hybrid-vs-2019-toyota-rav4-hybrid/

Hmmm, in the CR book they put out I saw a 67 rating for the Escape hybrid. At least I thought I saw that. I did see the Car and Driver comparison and many You Tube video reviews. The Escape always got good reviews. Seems to me previous generation Escape wasn't particularly reliable and knowing CR that will affect new generation scores. 

 

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13 minutes ago, FordBuyer said:

Hmmm, in the CR book they put out I saw a 67 rating for the Escape hybrid. At least I thought I saw that. I did see the Car and Driver comparison and many You Tube video reviews. The Escape always got good reviews. Seems to me previous generation Escape wasn't particularly reliable and knowing CR that will affect new generation scores. 


You are correct, CR does stupid shit like that. 

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Been a CR subscriber for many years. I almost always return the annual survey. Yes it is voluntary. Responses asked for any problems YOU believe to be significant. As a retired Ford employee, I always want to give a good report on my Ford Products. Thankfully, I have been honestly able to do just that. With demographic of CR readers, likely to get a large number of Camry and Accord responses. Other makes and models, not as much. Are the responders more likely to be those with an axe to grind? Remember years ago, that a satisfied customer tells 1 or 2 people. A dissatisfied customer tells 10 or more. Now with the internet,  increase that number 1000 fold. 

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I couldn't get the link to work but search for Ford Customer Satisfsction Program 20B14... this is why the Escape Hybrid got dinged.  It was a simple software fix but going by the dates of affected units it took a while to come up with the final fix.  If I remember right there was also an earlier software upgrade attempt, but it didn't completely correct the problem.

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