Jump to content

F Series Going Back To Steel


Recommended Posts

Hopefully 3rd gen AHSS from ArcelorMittal will prompt Ford to use steel more extensively in the next redesign for F-Series, which will benefit both Ford and F-Series customers. Ford has already applied a mixed materials strategy that includes AHSS and other steels for Explorer and Bronco. No reason it can't do the same for F-Series. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Makes sense for Ranger, Mustang, possibly Explorer, but not Heavier things like trucks. 
 

BTW, there's more aluminum on the Bronco. All doors, hood, fenders, swing gate are all aluminum. 

That's good to hear. One of the things I was excited for when ford went all in on alluminum was its resistance to rust. The idea of a steel bronco is less appealing today.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, probowler said:

That's good to hear. One of the things I was excited for when ford went all in on alluminum was its resistance to rust. The idea of a steel bronco is less appealing today.

Yeah, let's hope the days of rusting rocker and quarter panels are over for good. Lower areas on the doors and lip areas around wheel openings are prone to rust also. Modern vehicles resist rust better, but they still rust especially in cold climates and left outside. When I was a kid, I always liked fiberglass Corvettes because they didn't start rusting after a few years like most vehicles from the 60's. My 1962 Galaxie 500 showed rust by 1965. So stick to aluminum Ford and expand its use, not diminish it. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As someone who grew up in MN, I like the AL F-series for its rust resistance and light weight.  I question whether the new steels are actually any cheaper than aluminum when you consider the recycling programs Ford put in place to optimize the price for scrap.  At any rate, if they do make the switch, I’ll likely get in line for the last of the aluminum bodies.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If done properly, steel can be treated to resist rust. Pretreatment and e-coat (elpo to GM fans) provide significant corrosion protection. Aluminum is subject to filiform corrosion. Filiform corrosion can be observed on edges of panels in many vehicles. It can be prevented by several pretreatment measures. The most effective is chromate solutions. For environmental reasons, that is not going to happen in automotive. Aftermarket repair of aluminum is also pricey.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well the biggest negative I see as I understand this material is you just don't take a sheet of it, throw it in a press and send the body panel on down the line.  Sounds like a good amount of prep (heating the final product) before it becomes fit for its intended application.

 

Might work for smaller pieces but for big items like door/hood/roof panels???  

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

Technical details of ArcelorMittal's GI Fortiform® 980 3rd generation AHSS used in 2021 Ford Bronco. Attached.

2019 GDIS-Advantages of Fortiform® 980 GI - Superior Weldability--5a072828f648c4e0c733bcab4729c69d.pdf


I really don't want to speak out of turn here. If this is what I think it is, I think it's used for the front structure (firewall forward behind the fenders). I can't really confirm that. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, paintguy said:

If done properly, steel can be treated to resist rust. Pretreatment and e-coat (elpo to GM fans) provide significant corrosion protection. Aluminum is subject to filiform corrosion. Filiform corrosion can be observed on edges of panels in many vehicles. It can be prevented by several pretreatment measures. The most effective is chromate solutions. For environmental reasons, that is not going to happen in automotive. Aftermarket repair of aluminum is also pricey.

 

Isn't filiform corrosion what was affecting Mustang hoods and Expedition hoods and tailgates?  Seeing it on aluminum body panels on transit buses too.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope they dont go back to steel. Our fleet superduty trucks dont have an easy life. The aluminum has held up better than i would have thought. Spending most of their time in the rust belt, the aluminum is great and we dont see any of the corrosion even with some at 200k miles now. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, MGolden said:

I hope they dont go back to steel. Our fleet superduty trucks dont have an easy life. The aluminum has held up better than i would have thought. Spending most of their time in the rust belt, the aluminum is great and we dont see any of the corrosion even with some at 200k miles now. 

Good point. I would imagine most fleet trucks sit outside mostly, and don't get washed much as drain holes clog up over time. And visiting construction sites everyday means mostly dirty, muddy truck. Moreover, deep scratches and bruises through the paint mean instant rust on bare metal.

 

Since F150 is only all aluminum body pickup on market, keep it that way Ford. Over time with technology and new alloys, you can make aluminum even lighter and stronger giving you greater edge against tough competition. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Isn't filiform corrosion what was affecting Mustang hoods and Expedition hoods and tailgates?  Seeing it on aluminum body panels on transit buses too.   

Yes. See it on other manufacturers vehicles as well. It is a problem in aircraft, as you might suspect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a feeling that the switch to aluminum on the F series cost Ford quite a bit of money.  Aluminum is substantially more expensive than steel, you have to use more of it to get comparable strength, all those rivets and glue, and a bit more labor to get it all lined up right.  For the consumer the benefits are not too clear.  I think aluminum made the F-150 lighter, but didn't do much for the Super Duty.  The weigh close to what the GM and Ram HD's weigh and don't have any substantial advantage in fuel economy, towing capacity, or payload (in fact certain Super Duty configurations have laughably low payloads).  The aluminum bodies are a bit more prone to damage and are more expensive to repair.  The aluminum bodies might not corrode as easily (ask again in 5 years) but these days I think more trucks are taken off the road due to frame and suspension corrosion than body.  In any event typically more of a problem for the second or third owner and in much of the country body rust isn't a factor anyway.  So to sum it up as far as I am concerned the aluminum body wouldn't keep me from buying a new Super Duty, nor would it by itself make me want a Super Duty more than competitive steel bodied trucks.   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

I have a feeling that the switch to aluminum on the F series cost Ford quite a bit of money.  Aluminum is substantially more expensive than steel, you have to use more of it to get comparable strength, all those rivets and glue, and a bit more labor to get it all lined up right.  For the consumer the benefits are not too clear.  I think aluminum made the F-150 lighter, but didn't do much for the Super Duty.  The weigh close to what the GM and Ram HD's weigh and don't have any substantial advantage in fuel economy, towing capacity, or payload (in fact certain Super Duty configurations have laughably low payloads).  The aluminum bodies are a bit more prone to damage and are more expensive to repair.  The aluminum bodies might not corrode as easily (ask again in 5 years) but these days I think more trucks are taken off the road due to frame and suspension corrosion than body.  In any event typically more of a problem for the second or third owner and in much of the country body rust isn't a factor anyway.  So to sum it up as far as I am concerned the aluminum body wouldn't keep me from buying a new Super Duty, nor would it by itself make me want a Super Duty more than competitive steel bodied trucks.   

We've been through this before, the plant was gutted, presses and robots all needed replacing, so it was the perfect time 

to switch to aluminium with least impact. Sure, aluminium is more expensive - that's by weight  so not as bad as it looks 

initially but still a cost. Weight reduction with aluminium allows Ford to meet CAFE with a heavy mix of 4x4 crew cab trucks 

and that over every other benefit is the whole point for going aluminium.

 

I'm reliably informed that the way Ford's aluminium panels are stamped allows more sub assembly work to be done at 

stamping plants before arriving at the body shop. The body shop is now a lot cleaner and quieter. Not sure how services 

on robot riveters and gluing compares to welding robots but I'd imagine latest gen robots are just better to work on anyway.

 

 

 

Edited by jpd80
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Not sure how services 

on robot riveters and gluing compares to welding robots but I'd imagine latest gen robots are just better to work on anyway.


We have both types of robots here (North Stamping makes the F-series dash panels and roof rails). Seems to be about the same from talking to the trades guys. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

I have a feeling that the switch to aluminum on the F series cost Ford quite a bit of money.  Aluminum is substantially more expensive than steel, you have to use more of it to get comparable strength, all those rivets and glue, and a bit more labor to get it all lined up right.  For the consumer the benefits are not too clear.  I think aluminum made the F-150 lighter, but didn't do much for the Super Duty.  The weigh close to what the GM and Ram HD's weigh and don't have any substantial advantage in fuel economy, towing capacity, or payload (in fact certain Super Duty configurations have laughably low payloads).  The aluminum bodies are a bit more prone to damage and are more expensive to repair. 

 

Yes sir 7Mary3, you are correct that the overuse of aluminum for F Series is not beneficial for either Ford as a business or F-Series customers. Ford used this strategy as a relatively easy way to achieve weight reduction targets, but of course there are downsides as you mentioned. 

 

In 2018, NYT wrote this article.

Ford Bet on Aluminum Trucks, but Is Still Looking for Payoff: Conceived for an era of high gasoline prices, the F-150 has lost its fuel-efficiency selling point, while its key material has gotten costlier. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/business/ford-f150-aluminum-trucks.html

 

Since then, Ford switched to a "mixed materials" strategy. For example, it originally considered an all aluminum body for 2020 Explorer, but wisely decided to go with a "carefully targeted selection of materials with characteristics and costs tailored to different types of vehicles" as Mark Phelan from Detroit Free Press said. https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2019/07/06/2020-ford-explorer/1631153001/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...