Next gen Mustang to go full EV

[AGR]

1 hour ago, Dequindre said:

How will Ford make the transition to all EVs without a reliable nationwide charging network? 

Uncle Joe is promising 500K charging stations...

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe like the French, they go nuclear power plants and end all the coal supply contracts...

Doing that coupled with their aggressive BEV policy may surprise some......

 

Can't do that, nuclear is evil too.  Anything but wind mills and unicorn farts are evil and can't be used.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford like other incumbent automakers need to invest in charging networks on their own, 

That makes as much sense as Ford owning gas stations.

 

I still say the vast majority of BEVs for the next 5 years wil be charging at home 99% of the time.  

[fuzzymoomoo]

5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe like the French, they go nuclear power plants and end all the coal supply contracts...

Doing that coupled with their aggressive BEV policy may surprise some......

It's a non-binding agreement so nobody really has to do anything

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

It's a non-binding agreement so nobody really has to do anything

I think that's all about to change......

 

To clarify, I mean nothing ominous by that, just maybe a change of heart by some major players.

None of us are the same after 2020, maybe it's time to  commit to achievable goals in realistic time.

Edited January 20, 2021 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

32 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

I think that's all about to change......

 

To clarify, I mean nothing ominous by that, just maybe a change of heart by some major players.

None of us are the same after 2020, maybe it's time to  commit to achievable goals in realistic time.

Not with the far left administration that comes in today... they’re going to be VERY aggressive pushing their agenda no matter what destruction it may cause in its path. 

[sullynd]

8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Maybe like the French, they go nuclear power plants and end all the coal supply contracts...

Doing that coupled with their aggressive BEV policy may surprise some......

France is working on phasing out it’s nucs.  It’s a long way away, but they aren’t a good example of a country adding nuclear power - they’re the exact opposite. 

[sullynd]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

That makes as much sense as Ford owning gas stations.

 

I still say the vast majority of BEVs for the next 5 years wil be charging at home 99% of the time.  

Agreed. In addition there already is an existing reliable charging network. 

[jasonj80]

The gas stations owners I personally know (I live in Dearborn after all) are waiting on the 350kW-500kW chargers to become wildly available before they spend the money to put them in. They don't see the value in putting in the 150kW versions that are most common now, it takes too long to charge. With the higher ones they have times that are similar to fuel. They however are excited for a few reasons, electric charging is way more profitable than fuel. Studies in the industry have shown that consumers are more likely to plug in and come inside rather than stay at the vehicle while charging. With the new administration they view there will be even more additional money available for charging stations. It is really hit or miss depending on rebates available for electric and state/local governments. One is also studying building just a charging station energy station, will have a C-store and Tim Hortons - just no fuel pumps.

[slemke]

1 minute ago, jasonj80 said:

The gas stations owners I personally know (I live in Dearborn after all) are waiting on the 350kW-500kW chargers to become wildly available before they spend the money to put them in. They don't see the value in putting in the 150kW versions that are most common now, it takes too long to charge. With the higher ones they have times that are similar to fuel. They however are excited for a few reasons, electric charging is way more profitable than fuel. Studies in the industry have shown that consumers are more likely to plug in and come inside rather than stay at the vehicle while charging. With the new administration they view there will be even more additional money available for charging stations. It is really hit or miss depending on rebates available for electric and state/local governments. One is also studying building just a charging station energy station, will have a C-store and Tim Hortons - just no fuel pumps.

Makes sense.  I’m sure it will be much easier to obtain the necessary permits for a charging only c-store than one with fuel. Banning underground fuel tanks has been a goal for a long time.  But up until recently, no feasible alternative.  With charging that takes about as much time as running in to grab a drink, snack, etc. it becomes a good business model.

 

They will still face opposition from the not in my backyard crowd (too much traffic, emf/emi emissions, junk food is unhealthy, you name it).  As more charging stations become available the profit will go down.  Particularly when the tax subsidies run out and people need to pay an appropriate road tax on electricity used for on road transportation.  I wasn’t impressed with the prices on the tfl Mach-e vs model y comparison.

[FordBuyer]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I think that's all about to change......

 

To clarify, I mean nothing ominous by that, just maybe a change of heart by some major players.

None of us are the same after 2020, maybe it's time to  commit to achievable goals in realistic time.

How about by 2025, 25% of all new vehicles sold will have some sort of big battery in it, be it BEV, Plugin hybrid, or hybrid. Also, Hyundai and Toyota are going the hydrogen fuel cell route. That is achievable I suppose. The 2021's are already filling up new vehicle inventories, so maybe even 25% is overly optimistic. And of course the used vehicle market that is 4 times larger, and almost all ICE and will be around for decades.

[FordBuyer]

25 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

The gas stations owners I personally know (I live in Dearborn after all) are waiting on the 350kW-500kW chargers to become wildly available before they spend the money to put them in. They don't see the value in putting in the 150kW versions that are most common now, it takes too long to charge. With the higher ones they have times that are similar to fuel. They however are excited for a few reasons, electric charging is way more profitable than fuel. Studies in the industry have shown that consumers are more likely to plug in and come inside rather than stay at the vehicle while charging. With the new administration they view there will be even more additional money available for charging stations. It is really hit or miss depending on rebates available for electric and state/local governments. One is also studying building just a charging station energy station, will have a C-store and Tim Hortons - just no fuel pumps.

For all this to happen, consumers actually have to buy BEVs. Other than Tesla, no one is buying them. The Bolt and Leaf are sales failures. Not sure how many are buying Plugins, but doesn't seem much. Mach E seems promising, but so far a modest start. Hybrids have had some sales success, but still modest compared to ICE.

 

With gas still around $2, it will be very difficult to get most drivers out of their ICE vehicles. If you only sell electric, then drivers will turn to USED ICE. IMO, it will take a $3 gas tax to get drivers out of their ICE vehicles. And the politics of that are dubious at best. 

 

So talking about building 50,000 charging stations is a moot point if no one willingly buys BEVs. And without a huge gas tax, no one will in numbers to support 50,000 charging stations.

[rperez817]

9 hours ago, akirby said:

I still say the vast majority of BEVs for the next 5 years wil be charging at home 99% of the time.  

 

Yes sir, home charging is one of the biggest advantages of BEV. However, building an extensive, reliable DC fast charging infrastructure will help BEV skeptics make the switch from ICE to BEV. This goes hand in hand with the automotive industry's future goal of 100% electric, 100% autonomous vehicles. Automakers, independent firms specializing in EVSE, and governments will need to work together on this.

 

Consumer Reports did a survey recently about this issue.

Quote

 

“Drivers are used to plentiful gas stations, and may not realize that if they have a personal garage or driveway, they’ll be doing most of their charging at home,” says Chris Harto, a senior policy analyst at Consumer Reports. “Even though our research shows that the typical driver would do as little as 6 stops at a public charging station per year, a more robust network of fast-charging stations would help alleviate buyers concerns about switching to an electric vehicle.”

Most drivers also say they want to see the government help fund the construction of public fast-charging stations. 55% of U.S. adult drivers “agree” or “strongly agree” that “the federal government should invest money to increase the availability of plug-in electric vehicle charging stations,” with only 17% saying they “disagree” or “strongly disagree” to this policy action.

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by rperez817

[silvrsvt]

20 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Yes sir, home charging is one of the biggest advantages of BEV. However, building an extensive, reliable DC fast charging infrastructure will help BEV skeptics make the switch from ICE to BEV. This goes hand in hand with the automotive industry's future goal of 100% electric, 100% autonomous vehicles. Automakers, independent firms specializing in EVSE, and governments will need to work together on this.

 

Fully Autonomous vehicles are still a pipe dream for the next 20 years at least.

[jasonj80]

Tesla has been the only real electric car company in the US market in making a non compliance electric car. That changed with the Mach-e; VW, Ford, Nissan and GM all have good/great electric vehicles this year in the US market. Once EV's become cheaper than ICE vehicles the adoption will shoot up considerably that transition point at parity is around 2022-2023 and past 2025 electric cars will be cheaper than ICE to produce. By 2030 the ability to buy a new ICE powered short of a Pickup/BOF SUV will be very limited in the market if non-existent at all and even in those markets it will be limited.  It will not make financial sense to develop vehicles that can't be sold in 90% of the high profit world market, the US market is a fraction of the China/EU market at that point. Ford will be closing engine and transmission production facilities by the end of the decade, some will be converted to battery plants while others will just close. The revolution is happening to electric vehicles, it is not if it happens but when and when is a lot closer than a lot of people think.  

The most important question, Why would someone want to buy an ICE Mustang that has worse performance and higher ownership costs than electric vehicles in the class? 

 

[Twin Turbo]

5 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

The most important question, Why would someone want to buy an ICE Mustang that has worse performance and higher ownership costs than electric vehicles in the class? 

 

 

Soul. Something the V8 gives the Mustang. I don't listen to the stereo in mine, the V8 produces all the music I need. No amount of pumped in fake sound will ever be able to replace that.

 

I know an EV Mustang will be faster and cheaper to run, but many people buy Mustangs with their hearts, not their heads.

 

I'm not against an EV Mustang (well, at least one that keeps it pony car roots.......2+2, long hood, short deck, fastback or convertible)........but given the choice of a V8 or an EV, I'll take the V8 every time. When the V8 is no longer available, I'll embrace the EV version

 

 

[mackinaw]

57 minutes ago, Twin Turbo said:

Soul. Something the V8 gives the Mustang. I don't listen to the stereo in mine, the V8 produces all the music I need. No amount of pumped in fake sound will ever be able to replace that......

 

You should watch (and listen) to this video.  

 

 

[bzcat]

1 hour ago, Twin Turbo said:

 

Soul. Something the V8 gives the Mustang. I don't listen to the stereo in mine, the V8 produces all the music I need. No amount of pumped in fake sound will ever be able to replace that.

 

I know an EV Mustang will be faster and cheaper to run, but many people buy Mustangs with their hearts, not their heads.

 

I'm not against an EV Mustang (well, at least one that keeps it pony car roots.......2+2, long hood, short deck, fastback or convertible)........but given the choice of a V8 or an EV, I'll take the V8 every time. When the V8 is no longer available, I'll embrace the EV version

 

 

 

I love a V8 as well and I am also a manual transmission hold out. Mustang is one of the few cars for sale right now that has that combo. I figured I will have a few more years to pick one up before we fully enter the EV future. Like I said earlier in the thread, S650 Mustang will be the swan song for this type of car and I think it will create a lot of interest, especially towards the end of the model run. Just like Porsche guys that are frantically buying up Cayman GT4 and Boxster Spyder because they will be the last ICE 4.0 non-turbo flat six that Porsche will ever make. The next Cayman/Boxster may be all electric.

Edited January 20, 2021 by bzcat

[rmc523]

6 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Not with the far left administration that comes in today... they’re going to be VERY aggressive pushing their agenda no matter what destruction it may cause in its path. 

 

And I'm sure that destruction will somehow be the other side's fault...

 

 

---

 

Anyway, if Ford wanted to, the quickest way they could set up a charging infrastructure would be to have dealers install a couple chargers out front in the parking lot if they haven't already.  Then they'd "instantly" have a network rivaling if not exceeding Tesla's.

 

I agree with others above that have said with the new administration, we're likely to see some sort of push on a charging infrastructure.

[jpd80]

8 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Not with the far left administration that comes in today... they’re going to be VERY aggressive pushing their agenda no matter what destruction it may cause in its path. 

 

The first one hundred days will either prove you right or change your mind on what you thought would happen.

Either way, things are going to be very different. I keep my fingers crossed that America prevails.

Edited January 20, 2021 by jpd80

[Footballfan]

3 hours ago, jasonj80 said:

Tesla has been the only real electric car company in the US market in making a non compliance electric car. That changed with the Mach-e; VW, Ford, Nissan and GM all have good/great electric vehicles this year in the US market. Once EV's become cheaper than ICE vehicles the adoption will shoot up considerably that transition point at parity is around 2022-2023 and past 2025 electric cars will be cheaper than ICE to produce. By 2030 the ability to buy a new ICE powered short of a Pickup/BOF SUV will be very limited in the market if non-existent at all and even in those markets it will be limited.  It will not make financial sense to develop vehicles that can't be sold in 90% of the high profit world market, the US market is a fraction of the China/EU market at that point. Ford will be closing engine and transmission production facilities by the end of the decade, some will be converted to battery plants while others will just close. The revolution is happening to electric vehicles, it is not if it happens but when and when is a lot closer than a lot of people think.  

The most important question, Why would someone want to buy an ICE Mustang that has worse performance and higher ownership costs than electric vehicles in the class? 

 

I don't see this happening until at least the middle of the century if then.  EVs will not gain full acceptance until there are enough charging stations and it takes no more to charge a drained battery than an empty fuel tank.  Then there are economics.  If demand for electricity goes up, the price will skyrocket and the price for gasoline will fall.  Someone has to pay for the charging infrastructure and I am sure that taxes will be levied on killowatt hours to make up for any lost gas tax revenues.  In the end, it will cost just as much to charge a battery as it will to fill a tank.

 

This reminds me of the diesel hype of the late 70s and early 80s.  Diesels were supposed to replace gasoline engines. We saw how that turned out.

[Footballfan]

5 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Yes sir, home charging is one of the biggest advantages of BEV. However, building an extensive, reliable DC fast charging infrastructure will help BEV skeptics make the switch from ICE to BEV. This goes hand in hand with the automotive industry's future goal of 100% electric, 100% autonomous vehicles. Automakers, independent firms specializing in EVSE, and governments will need to work together on this.

 

 

AVs are something that most people have no interest in whatsoever and are many decades (if ever) away from being short-distance, low speed geofenced vehicles. We saw what happened to automakers like GM when they tried to shove products down people's throats that they did not want.  And government need not push this.  How can a bunch of clueless bureaucrats decide what is best for everyone to get around?  

Edited January 20, 2021 by Footballfan

[Footballfan]

I recall one post on BON regarding the EVs Oakville is expected to build.  There are three performance variants (2 and 4 door) of 20,000 units each.  That is where this forecasting company is getting their info mixed up.  The Mustang is Ford's Camaro AND Corvette, and I do not see the Vette ever going full EV.

[jpd80]

10 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

I recall one post on BON regarding the EVs Oakville is expected to build.  There are three performance variants (2 and 4 door) of 20,000 units each.  That is where this forecasting company is getting their info mixed up.  The Mustang is Ford's Camaro AND Corvette, and I do not see the Vette ever going full EV.

GM is seriously talking about a BEV version of the Corvette, the mid engine packaging

might actually allow that to happen..... we'll see.

 

I think the planned BEV Trucks and Utilities will do more to sway the public's opinions,

charging network is still a pain if everyone is trying to charge at the same time.

 

Decent range plus home charging overnight will go a long way to advancing BEV uptake.

Edited January 20, 2021 by jpd80

[rperez817]

25 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

AVs are something that most people have no interest in whatsoever and are many decades (if ever) away from being short-distance, low speed geofenced vehicles. We saw what happened to automakers like GM when they tried to shove products down people's throats that they did not want.  And government need not push this.  How can a bunch of clueless bureaucrats decide what is best for everyone to get around?  

 

Similar to the situation with EV, governments and automakers have to work together in order to deploy AV as quickly as possible. The automakers and supplier firms are doing their part from a technology standpoint, governments need to do theirs from a regulatory framework standpoint.

 

From the Self-Driving Coalition webpage (Ford is one of the members). https://www.selfdrivingcoalition.org/

 

The U.S. Department of Transportation has projected that fully self-driving vehicles could significantly reduce the severity and frequency of crashes and fatalities. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), statistical projections suggest that there have been more than 36,000 fatalities on America’s roads in 2019. An estimated 94% of road accidents are caused by human error, and motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death among young people, aged 15-29 years.

Self-driving technology has the great potential to improve public safety, enhance mobility for the elderly and disabled, reduce traffic congestion, improve environmental quality and advance transportation efficiency.