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Ford doubles electric vehicle investment to $22 billion through 2025


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4 hours ago, akirby said:

 

Don't forget there are large numbers of people who can't charge at home (apartments/condos/town homes/older homes).  This will change over time but not overnight.

Well, Toyota and Hyundai are all in on hydrogen fuel cells as the answer. There is room for both. 

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4 hours ago, akirby said:

 

But why import from China and not build it at OAP?   That's the confusing part.

 

 

There is definitely a lot of question mark around what other product OAP will be getting. And also remember... while Ford won't be investing a lot of new money into ICE vehicles, they will probably keep some of them in production indefinitely until the market completely switches over to EV. So that's why the rumor is Corsair EV is moving to OAP and not staying at Louisville... it's likely that Ford will keep the ICE Escape going at Louisville for as long as they have to so the next gen EV only has to move somewhere else. So some domino effect is probably happening here: If OAP gets next gen compact EV C Corsair, then there is no room for Nautilus so it has to go somewhere else etc. (it's all just a guess... this is a fact-free post and I freely admit that)

 

Edited by bzcat
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25 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

 

There is definitely a lot of question mark around what other product OAP will be getting. And also remember... while Ford won't be investing a lot of new money into ICE vehicles, they will probably keep some of them in production indefinitely until the market completely switches over to EV. So that's why the rumor is Corsair EV is moving to OAP and not staying at Louisville... it's likely that Ford will keep the ICE Escape going at Louisville for as long as they have to so the next gen EV only has to move somewhere else. So some domino effect is probably happening here: If OAP gets next gen compact EV C Corsair, then there is no room for Nautilus so it has to go somewhere else etc. (it's all just a guess... this is a fact-free post and I freely admit that)

 


Well, at the moment, Oakville is ONLY making Edge and Nautilus, so I'd think even with Corsair's volume, they should be able to make all 3.

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22 hours ago, akirby said:


Huge difference between Ford doubling EV investment over the next 4 years and GM saying it will be 100% EV in 14 years.

 

Not really. In 14 years, their lineups will be similar. And GM left enough wiggle room in their statement for ICE-powered pickups to still be rolling off assembly lines in 2035.

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4 minutes ago, AGR said:

 

TOYOTA is all, Hyundai is doing EVs as well. Fool Cells are a dead end technology

They could be a great option for heavy trucks until battery tech becomes more developed,

I wonder if anyone will dare to run counter to battery electric development programs.....

Edited by jpd80
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We'll see how the Tesla Semi turns out. I saw a story today that they plan to produce 2500 this year, And local delivery Class 3-6 trucks(maybe 7s, too) can easily be electric. Several manufacturers are developing such trucks.

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16 minutes ago, AGR said:

We'll see how the Tesla Semi turns out. I saw a story today that they plan to produce 2500 this year, And local delivery Class 3-6 trucks(maybe 7s, too) can easily be electric. Several manufacturers are developing such trucks.

Developing yes, local deliveries out and back to depots are probably a good start 

but I think that long haul will still be a big problem for battery electric but glad to 

be proven wrong.

 

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11 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Developing yes, local deliveries out and back to depots are probably a good start 

but I think that long haul will still be a big problem for battery electric but glad to 

be proven wrong.

 

Just read that Amazon bought a fleet of Natural Gas powered Tractors with Cummings engines modified by Westport. The 

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15 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

 

There is definitely a lot of question mark around what other product OAP will be getting. And also remember... while Ford won't be investing a lot of new money into ICE vehicles, they will probably keep some of them in production indefinitely until the market completely switches over to EV. So that's why the rumor is Corsair EV is moving to OAP and not staying at Louisville... it's likely that Ford will keep the ICE Escape going at Louisville for as long as they have to so the next gen EV only has to move somewhere else. So some domino effect is probably happening here: If OAP gets next gen compact EV C Corsair, then there is no room for Nautilus so it has to go somewhere else etc. (it's all just a guess... this is a fact-free post and I freely admit that)

 

 

Are there still 2 EV products going to Ohio that were announced a year ago or so? If so, where do they fit in the product line?

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19 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

Well, Toyota and Hyundai are all in on hydrogen fuel cells as the answer. There is room for both. 

 

I wonder if their respective home governments/markets have specific factors that are pushing them to continue work in the fuel cell arena. That's the only thing I can come up with, because there just doesn't seem to be a market case globally.

 

Both are also moving heavily into EV (presumably because of non home market needs). I think we're going to see Toyota's first real commercial EV shot when they introduce a new Lexus later this year (has already been teased on social media).

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23 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

PHEV can help automakers meet regulatory compliance requirements such as CAFE in the U.S. and Euro 7 in Europe short term. However, longer term PHEV is not an appropriate substitute for BEV and is a drain on automakers' capital budgets. One research study in Europe said "Plug-in hybrids are fake electric cars, built for lab tests and tax breaks, not real driving".

 

This is where GM did the right thing. By cancelling all hybrid and PHEV projects, they were able to re-allocate those resources to BEV projects, thereby bringing BEV products to market faster. Jim Farley's statement that Ford is now "all in" with BEV suggests that Ford may follow GM's lead.

Why?  Seems to me a plug-in hybrid is the best solution for someone that uses it as a daily short range commuter car/around town errand runner and still has the range for road trips and vacations.  Less cost than a full bev with the range needed for road trips but no range anxiety over having 20-30 miles of electric only range.  Not everyone has the luxury of having a specific vehicle for every task.

 

GM hopefully did what is best for their business.  They never were into hybrids to any extent, so they really don’t have the experience or platforms to leverage.  Ford does.  Toyota does.  The German mfgs do.  For those that have experience in hybrids, increasing the battery capacity and adding a more powerful electric motor makes sense.  A PHEV F150 makes a lot of sense.  It can run on electric power for all the errands and gas towing the trailer on weekends.  Yes it is a compromise, but sometimes that is the best solution when solving multiple needs.  A long range BEV is also a compromise.  Spending a lot to drag around a battery pack that is only needed occasionally.

 

whether anyone uses their vehicle as efficiently as possible is different problem.

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16 hours ago, jpd80 said:

They could be a great option for heavy trucks until battery tech becomes more developed,

I wonder if anyone will dare to run counter to battery electric development programs.....

Agreed.  Or CNG or biodiesel.  A heavy battery may not be an issue on rigs not approaching the 80000lb limit, but for those running at the limit the extra weight of batteries would be detrimental.

 

Charging infrastructure is debatable.  Drivers are required to the breaks and provide opportunities to charge without impacting timelines provided the logistics are worked out ahead of time.

 

I still think we be better off getting the heavy trucks off the roads and using rail or dedicated cargo routes that could be automated and electrified.

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1 hour ago, slemke said:

Why?  Seems to me a plug-in hybrid is the best solution for someone that uses it as a daily short range commuter car/around town errand runner and still has the range for road trips and vacations.  Less cost than a full bev with the range needed for road trips but no range anxiety over having 20-30 miles of electric only range.  Not everyone has the luxury of having a specific vehicle for every task.

 

GM hopefully did what is best for their business.  They never were into hybrids to any extent, so they really don’t have the experience or platforms to leverage.  Ford does.  Toyota does.  The German mfgs do.  For those that have experience in hybrids, increasing the battery capacity and adding a more powerful electric motor makes sense.  A PHEV F150 makes a lot of sense.  It can run on electric power for all the errands and gas towing the trailer on weekends.  Yes it is a compromise, but sometimes that is the best solution when solving multiple needs.  A long range BEV is also a compromise.  Spending a lot to drag around a battery pack that is only needed occasionally.

 

whether anyone uses their vehicle as efficiently as possible is different problem.

 

Because PHEVs don't fit the unicorn powered-BEV utopia agenda.

 

I'm not against BEVs.  I just don't think they're the panacea that they're made out to be.

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1 hour ago, slemke said:

GM hopefully did what is best for their business.  They never were into hybrids to any extent, so they really don’t have the experience or platforms to leverage.  Ford does.  Toyota does.  The German mfgs do.  For those that have experience in hybrids, increasing the battery capacity and adding a more powerful electric motor makes sense.  A PHEV F150 makes a lot of sense.  It can run on electric power for all the errands and gas towing the trailer on weekends.  Yes it is a compromise, but sometimes that is the best solution when solving multiple needs.  A long range BEV is also a compromise.  Spending a lot to drag around a battery pack that is only needed occasionally.

 

Good points slemke sir about compromises inherent to automotive design. I agree there will always be compromises of one kind or another with any type of automobile. However, PHEV is much more severely compromised than a long range BEV, because having two different sources for propulsion introduces design constraints that wouldn't exist with a single source.

 

Mark Reuss of GM said this a couple years ago on why GM redirected its capital investments away from hybrid/PHEV development and toward BEV development.

Quote

Hybrids are just countermeasures to an ICE.

You can't spend money to force the customer to carry around extra stuff they may not need.

Or, you can spend your money on getting the real answer, which is providing the customer a zero emissions, sustainable, affordable solution.

 

One of the end goals for the global automotive industry is 100% electric vehicles. Government regulations demand it, capital markets demand it, and consumers' increased focus on sustainability demands it. As  mentioned earlier, using existing hybrid and PHEV powertrains to meet regulatory requirements in the next 5 years or so makes sense. But at this point in time it's crazy stupid for any automaker to devote its capital introducing new ICE powered vehicles, including hybrids and PHEV, in upcoming product development cycles. 

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3 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Good points slemke sir about compromises inherent to automotive design. I agree there will always be compromises of one kind or another with any type of automobile. However, PHEV is much more severely compromised than a long range BEV, because having two different sources for propulsion introduces design constraints that wouldn't exist with a single source.

 

Mark Reuss of GM said this a couple years ago on why GM redirected its capital investments away from hybrid/PHEV development and toward BEV development.

 

One of the end goals for the global automotive industry is 100% electric vehicles. Government regulations demand it, capital markets demand it, and consumers' increased focus on sustainability demands it. As  mentioned earlier, using existing hybrid and PHEV powertrains to meet regulatory requirements in the next 5 years or so makes sense. But at this point in time it's crazy stupid for any automaker to devote its capital introducing new ICE powered vehicles, including hybrids and PHEV, in upcoming product development cycles. 

The “crazy stupid” will lock themselves into one solution and not leave themselves open to providing solutions customers are willing to pay for.  The end goal of the automotive industry is to make as much money as possible.  If they are fully backing electric cars, it is because that is where they think they can make the most money.  So they quietly lobby for government regulations and policies to support it.  Whether that was safety standards, clean air standards, or bev adoption.  
 

I don’t like the government telling me what is best.  I’m an adult and I want to make my own decisions.  For me, a PHEV makes sense.  I kinda wish we would have waited and got an aviator gt.  But I didn’t think we would be in a pandemic requiring us to drive the kids to their activities, wait in the car or drive home, and then pick them up when we bought it. I still want the 500 mile range it provides, just use electric for those short trips that waste fuel because the engine hasn’t warmed up.  I also like the sound.  Small ecoboost v8 would be even better.

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