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EVs and Their Drawbacks


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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Yeah my Old man worked in HVAC and said the same thing. Its fine for when it gets down to maybe 40 degrees, but below that its sucking big time. 


We had one for the basement at our old house.  It worked great down to about 40 degrees as you said and then it has an electric backup.  Perfect for milder climates.

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2 hours ago, lfeg said:

One problem that I see with at home charging for EVs is the local distribution grid. Where I live the local distribution grid was designed and built out in the 50's when homes had 60 amp/240 V service. (30 amp on one leg 120V and 30 amp on the other leg 120 V) In the 70's and 80's when many people added whole house AC, service to the homes was upgraded one at a time to 100 amp service with larger capacity pole mounted transformers added as needed. The basic grid that exists today was that installed in the 50's (same wires, insulators, poles). Gas furnaces, ranges, etc are the norm. On hot summer days when everyone is running AC I notice quite a voltage drop when I run my air compressor and other items in the garage. Also, the 4160 line in my back yard has a more noticeable droop. Adding EV home charging to even 20% of the homes would require updated wiring and more or larger transformers. Get ready for higher electricity bills to pay for the updates, as they are long overdue.

You raise some good points, though as for the problem you note "on hot summer days when everyone is running AC," typically EV owners charge up their vehicles at night, not during the day, so at least there is that.

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8 hours ago, akirby said:


We had one for the basement at our old house.  It worked great down to about 40 degrees as you said and then it has an electric backup.  Perfect for milder climates.

Depends on the heat pump, some are efficient down to 20 degrees or so, but 40 seems pretty common.  I have a dual fuel system.  Heat pump runs when the temp is above 45, gas below that or when a quick warm up is called for.  The switchover point is programmable through the service menu.  At my old house, I changed the switchover point based on the price of natural gas.   Saved enough to pay for the system in a couple years.

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10 hours ago, slemke said:

Depends on the heat pump, some are efficient down to 20 degrees or so, but 40 seems pretty common.  I have a dual fuel system.  Heat pump runs when the temp is above 45, gas below that or when a quick warm up is called for.  The switchover point is programmable through the service menu.  At my old house, I changed the switchover point based on the price of natural gas.   Saved enough to pay for the system in a couple years.

 

But wouldn't it just be easier/cheaper to have a gas furnace instead of having two systems that are far more complex and more points of failure? 

 

I've noticed in my houses I've lived in (live in Northeast) that the heat doesn't run all that much when its at the 50 degree mark and can keep the house near 70 running maybe once or twice a day. 

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18 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

You raise some good points, though as for the problem you note "on hot summer days when everyone is running AC," typically EV owners charge up their vehicles at night, not during the day, so at least there is that.

Around here, on the hot summer days many run the AC well into the night.

 

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40 minutes ago, lfeg said:

Around here, on the hot summer days many run the AC well into the night.

 

 

In the South it can be 90 degrees at 10 pm.   You better believe the AC runs well into the night - sometimes all night because of the humidity.   But it certainly doesn't run as much as it does during the day especially when you consider businesses that aren't open 24 hours.

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11 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But wouldn't it just be easier/cheaper to have a gas furnace instead of having two systems that are far more complex and more points of failure? 

 

I've noticed in my houses I've lived in (live in Northeast) that the heat doesn't run all that much when its at the 50 degree mark and can keep the house near 70 running maybe once or twice a day. 

It is a single system.  Instead of a conventional a/c unit with the coils in the air handler of the furnace, you have some extra valves to reverse the rolls of the evaporator and condenser.  It was about $500 adder over a furnace with central air.

 

it’s the 50 degree nights where it comes in handy and cloudy days.  On sunny days, it doesn’t run at all.  Houses in NC aren’t insulated as well as the NE or upper Midwest.  My builder thought I was nuts putting as much insulation in my house as I did.

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On 2/12/2021 at 9:02 AM, akirby said:

 

In the South it can be 90 degrees at 10 pm.   You better believe the AC runs well into the night - sometimes all night because of the humidity.   But it certainly doesn't run as much as it does during the day especially when you consider businesses that aren't open 24 hours.

 

Totally agree. Ours cycles all night, even set at 78 degrees, in the summer.  Thankfully, our electricity is from nuclear and natural gas-fired plants that are economical, compared to rates in CA & the Northeast.

 

To help reduce demand during high usage days, in California, PG&E has a program to install a remotely operated shutoff on the Central AC Unit.  PG&E then can shutoff the AC for up to 6 hours per day.  While the program is voluntary, PG&E says it helps customer save on their electric bills. 

PG&E's SmartAC program malfunctions

 

With the proliferation of "Smart" electric meters across the county that communicate wirelessly, the electric company will have the infrastructure in place to be able to enact peak/off peak pricing to control demand. (once regulators give the green light) 

Many states allow customers to "Opt-Out" of the smart meter program, provided the smart meter has not already been installed.

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On 2/13/2021 at 6:17 PM, jgonza5 said:

 

Totally agree. Ours cycles all night, even set at 78 degrees, in the summer.  Thankfully, our electricity is from nuclear and natural gas-fired plants that are economical, compared to rates in CA & the Northeast.

 

To help reduce demand during high usage days, in California, PG&E has a program to install a remotely operated shutoff on the Central AC Unit.  PG&E then can shutoff the AC for up to 6 hours per day.  While the program is voluntary, PG&E says it helps customer save on their electric bills. 

PG&E's SmartAC program malfunctions

 

With the proliferation of "Smart" electric meters across the county that communicate wirelessly, the electric company will have the infrastructure in place to be able to enact peak/off peak pricing to control demand. (once regulators give the green light) 

Many states allow customers to "Opt-Out" of the smart meter program, provided the smart meter has not already been installed.

 

LOL, that's absurd.

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Power generation is a real mess lately.  Coal is under fire from all sides and plants are shutting down permanently left and right.  Nuclear is having a hard time competing with natural gas plants on cost and are shutting down permanently despite being far better suited for baseload operation than gas is.  Meanwhile the govt incentive money keeps flowing to wind and solar, even to the point of building it where it's not needed just to collect the incentive money.   Then more nat gas plants are thrown up in the background, out of site and with no fanfare since they're not "clean", to make up for the gaps in wind/solar and to backfill the coal and nuke plants that have shut down.

 

It all works well enough that consumers (voters) don't notice until a good cold spell hits deep into the midwest. Then the windmills freeze and all the gas is diverted to heating needs.  Next thing you know it's rolling brownouts, people freezing, and entire industries shutting down due to lack of natural gas or electricty.

 

But yeah, let's just throw a bunch of EV load in too.  I'm sure it'll all work out great.

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16 minutes ago, Sevensecondsuv said:

Nuclear is having a hard time competing with natural gas plants on cost and are shutting down permanently despite being far better suited for baseload operation than gas is. 

 

I think the governments of New York and Illinois have prevented nuclear power plants in those states from shutting down by providing subsidies to their operators in the form of zero emissions credits. 

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3 hours ago, snooter said:

Windmill turbines freezing up coupled with peak need and not enuff power plants...hell the future is here now in texas.....and yet ford races into all electric with no plan...


Ford has to as that what the government is requiring. Politicians know better than anyone just ask one of them and they will tell you that. Also Power and Water should be free so really it will be nice as you'll be able to charge your vehicle for free. 

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1 hour ago, 2005Explorer said:

is our grid even capable of a 100% EV future without major investment?

 

Yes sir 2005Explorer. While investment will be required, it is very nominal and very feasible taking into account EV charging strategies, smart grid technology,  growth patterns of per capita electric power consumption over the past 60 years, and other factors.

 

Engineering Explained did a nice video last week on this topic, this is the video that tucker_bmd mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

 

Edited by rperez817
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We're having rolling black outs all the way up here in North Dakota to compensate for the issues down in Texas.  If the grid can't handle a bit of winter weather down south, how the hell are they going to handle all the electric cars?

 

With temps at -6F here now, they can't shut our power off for more than 40 minutes or so.  But still, it sucks.

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Today open market electric contracts for a megawatt are selling for thousands of dollars in some markets vs the typical $40-60. The people that have have dynamic pricing with a third party provider will be in for the shock of a lifetime with what is going on. 

 Today in Energy - Daily Prices - Prices - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Edited by jasonj80
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On 2/11/2021 at 9:12 AM, FordBuyer said:

 

The problem with the C-Max was the intrusion on the cargo area, especially with the plugin. My Escape doesn't have that problem with better design with the battery under the rear seat and out of the way. We have no problem putting our two bikes in back and trying different bike trails. 

 

That's the downside of taking a vehicle not originally a hybrid and making it a hybrid.  You shove the battery wherever it would fit.  I've cursed many a time when I'd get a leaky tire on my CMAX because I don't have a spare, the high voltage battery is there.  

 

The new Escape has a battery that is physically much smaller.  If the battery was that small in the CMAX, there would be no cargo space issues.  It's amazing how small they can make things as technology gets better.

 

Mine isn't the plug-in variety, but I needed to haul a 40 gallon hot water tank home, and it actually fit in my CMAX hybrid.  Had an inch to the back window, but I was impressed.  I'll be holding on to my car for a few more years.

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13 minutes ago, 92merc said:

We're having rolling black outs all the way up here in North Dakota to compensate for the issues down in Texas.  If the grid can't handle a bit of winter weather down south, how the hell are they going to handle all the electric cars?

 

With temps at -6F here now, they can't shut our power off for more than 40 minutes or so.  But still, it sucks.

 

Here in Texas ERCOT has a Level 3 alert (EEA 3) going on now in certain parts of the state. Utility companies are doing rotating outages of 10 to 45 minutes. Certainly, it's not pleasant, but measures like this are necessary preserve the reliability of the electric system as a whole.

 

Pretty much standard practice in Texas, we're used to it.

 

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2 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Here in Texas ERCOT has a Level 3 alert (EEA 3) going on now in certain parts of the state. Utility companies are doing rotating outages of 10 to 45 minutes. Certainly, it's not pleasant, but measures like this are necessary preserve the reliability of the electric system as a whole.

 

Pretty much standard practice in Texas, we're used to it.

 

Don't worry...it will be 60 degrees+ in a few days there in Texas. Even here in Central FL, temps go from running the gas furnace to running the A/C in 48 hours.

 

Don't miss MI, especially back in the 90's when one winter we had over 20 days straight when the high barely made it to zero and lows way below zero. A couple years ago two FL guys were found frozen to death in MI about 100 yards from their broken down vehicle in some rural area. This kind of cold once your body heat is gone can kill you fast.

 

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7 hours ago, 92merc said:

We're having rolling black outs all the way up here in North Dakota to compensate for the issues down in Texas.  If the grid can't handle a bit of winter weather down south, how the hell are they going to handle all the electric cars?

 

With temps at -6F here now, they can't shut our power off for more than 40 minutes or so.  But still, it sucks.

I'm all for blaming Texicans for anything possible, but Texas doesn't have all that much impact on the Southwestern Power Pool. The only major Texas metro areas involved are Amarillo, Texarkana, Tyler, and possibly Lubbock (the map I saw isn't all that clear, but the area might go as far south as Midland/Odessa). The big population centers are on Texas's own grid.

 

FWIW, I just watched the SPP press conference on this, and they're trying to avoid cascading failures like the one that took out the grid in the northeast back in '03. Normally, Oklahoma and the Texas parts of SPP would be sending power to help the northern parts of SPP in times like this, but we're under that same blanket of ass-bitin' cold as the rest of the Great Plains (it was -8*F here this morning, hasn't been above freezing for a week, and won't be 'til this weekend).

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1 hour ago, SoonerLS said:

I'm all for blaming Texicans for anything possible, but Texas doesn't have all that much impact on the Southwestern Power Pool. The only major Texas metro areas involved are Amarillo, Texarkana, Tyler, and possibly Lubbock (the map I saw isn't all that clear, but the area might go as far south as Midland/Odessa). The big population centers are on Texas's own grid.

 

FWIW, I just watched the SPP press conference on this, and they're trying to avoid cascading failures like the one that took out the grid in the northeast back in '03. Normally, Oklahoma and the Texas parts of SPP would be sending power to help the northern parts of SPP in times like this, but we're under that same blanket of ass-bitin' cold as the rest of the Great Plains (it was -8*F here this morning, hasn't been above freezing for a week, and won't be 'til this weekend).

What I don’t understand is how a Grid the handles all that AC in the summer can’t handles the electric heat in Winter.  I guess they just don’t insulate to keep the cold in during the summer

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8 minutes ago, pictor said:

What I don’t understand is how a Grid the handles all that AC in the summer can’t handles the electric heat in Winter.  I guess they just don’t insulate to keep the cold in during the summer


I heard part of the problem is the windmills are frozen.

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5 minutes ago, akirby said:


I heard part of the problem is the windmills are frozen.

 

Yeah, if you listen to Fox News. Most of the electric power still comes from natural gas, coal, and nuclear. Ford just shut down KCAP because of NG shortage. NG prices are spiking big time TX. And many parts of the country that is very cold and has wind turbines are not having major power outages. TX is not hooked up to the National Grid and is stuck with its own independent grid system that they have not updated enough over the decades.

 

 

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