EVs and Their Drawbacks

[FordBuyer]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Also electrical need drops in the evening, even during the summer-the temps drop and the demand for AC lowers.

 

There are other things like going to LED lighting that will help with consumption rates-years back I knew a guy who had a small shop who had the local electric company came out and replaced all his bulbs in his store with more efficient ones to cut down on usage for free....just think of the savings if you can cut back usage in each house even 5-10% and multiply that by hundreds of houses and you'll see a decent amount of savings. 

 

Living in FL, my A/C runs 24 hrs./day 7 days a week from April to October, and even today it's 86 degrees here in Feb. An A/C unit has a shelf life of about 10 years in this climate running all the time. Real feel temps in summer are often over 110 degrees and about 90 at 4AM.

 

You would think solar power would be popular here, but it's not. It's used to heat the pool water in the winter and that's about it. Now BEV's are popular, but excessive heat hurts range also with A/C running full blast. And gas cooking super popular.. hard to sell a house without it.

 

Life is complicated and no easy fixes for global warming. Little answers, but no big game changers like BEV or solar power. 

[timsvtgen1]

TFL Car on Youtube had one hell of a hard time finding third party chargers for their Mach E. Eventually, Tomi and Roman found an Electrify America station but was unable to get the advertised charge out of it. They had a Model Y Tesla on hand as well at the same time and the Tesla charging network charged at a much MUCH faster rate. It will be nice to see these things get polished a little, as well as some better range in very cold weather. MACH E vs MODEL Y CHARGING

[jpd80]

11 hours ago, akirby said:

 

I'm not sure that's entirely true.   At the time Prius and Leaf were kicking ass and I know my theory at the time was that hybrid drivers wanted everyone to know they were driving a hybrid so it made sense to go the C-Max route.   In hindsight Escape would have probably done better but given the Prius success it wasn't a terrible strategy.

 

Those resources also went to Fusion and MKZ HEVs and Energis and they did pretty well.

Yes they did but now it’s petered out. did Hybrids need to be an either/or decision?

perhaps C-Max was a costly deviation when you consider the tens of thousands of RAV4s being sold each quarter.

IMO, Ford was ahead of the curve with GEN 1 Hybrid Escape, they just needed to hang in there with a good GEN 2.

 

It’s water under the bridge now but Ford still can’t get its shit together with hybrids.

[rmc523]

Just now, jpd80 said:

Yes they did but now it’s petered out. did Hybrids need to be an either/or decision?

perhaps C-Max was a costly deviation when you consider the tens of thousands of RAV4s being sold each quarter.

IMO, Ford was ahead of the curve with GEN 1 Hybrid Escape, they just needed to hang in there with a good GEN 2.

 

It’s water under the bridge now but Ford still can’t get its shit together with hybrids.

 

Perhaps it was a supply thing - i.e., maybe they felt they could only put out x hybrid powertrains max, and rather than try to spread it between C-Max and Escape, they went C-Max only.

 

I still think it was a mistake, but oh well.

 

Actually, isn't this current one technically a Gen 3?

 

They had this one:

 

and This one before the current one:

 

[sullynd]

I believe it was exactly that - they could build one or the other but not both. They gambled on trying to build another unique hybrid (Who knew there was a CMAX elsewhere) like the Prius and failed like everyone else has. The couple people I know who have had CMAX have loved them. 

[Gurgeh]

Good news: EVs in California place a much smaller load on home electricity use than thought. Bad news: it's because they are driven less than half as much as ICE vehicles. Those conducting the study speculate on the reasons why. EVs can be great second cars for driving around town, as long as you have overnight charging, but for longer trips families still pile into their traditionally-powered vehicle to avoid needing to search for charging stations on the road or at their destination and having to bother with the extra plug-in time vs. pumping time. Also factoring in is the fact that California has (on purpose) among the highest electricity rates in the country (also the least reliable, also on purpose). Finally, the study found that Tesla owners drive their cars more than non-Tesla EV owners. That's undoubtedly due in part to Tesla's more robust charging network.

 

--------------------------

 

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063724557

Study reveals EV secret: They are driven less than gas cars

"Electric vehicles in California logged half the miles on the roads of gas-powered cars and didn't draw the big quantity of energy that grid planners expected, according to a new study...

 

"The findings surprised the academics. As of four years ago, EVs in the Golden State drove on average 5,300 miles a year, less than half the distance driven by an average gas-powered car. And their energy usage is a small fraction of what state officials assume. 'If it turns out there are various reasons that people drive their EVs less,' Burlig said, 'it means that the EV is a less-good substitute for the gas car than we thought.' "

 

"The study also didn't consider why electric cars' travel is so constrained. But the researchers have some ideas.

 

"It could be that the drivers, encountering few public charging stations and suffering range anxiety, didn't trust their EVs for longer trips. It could be that households with more than one car look at their EV as an auxiliary. Or it could be that California's electricity rates, among the highest in the country, made fueling too expensive.

 

"Whatever the reason, there is something about EVs that makes them less convenient.

 

" 'Those are costs we're not necessarily thinking about,' Burlig said.

 

"Burlig said they didn't originally plan to focus their attention on EVs. They were more interested in how new actors, like EVs and solar panels, would affect reliability on the electric grid. But the researchers changed course when they realized that the impact of EVs on the grid was mostly unknown...

 

"They found that charging an EV increased electricity usage by 2.9 kilowatt-hours a day compared with an average home.

 

"That number is significant because it is so much less than the state of California assumes it to be. The California Energy Commission estimates that an EV uses almost three times as much — somewhere around 7 or 8 kWh a day. 'Regulators have been using unreliable information,' said Rapson, one of the study authors."

Edited February 10, 2021 by Gurgeh

[rperez817]

17 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063724557

 

Thanks for sharing this E&E News article Gurgeh sir. Hopefully the researchers who did the original study mentioned in the article covering 2014-2017 will do a follow-up for the 2018-2021 period as a comparison. As mentioned in the article, long range EV started to become more widespread in 2017 and 2018 when Tesla Model 3 sales picked up. That means annual mileage for the average EV owner in California has probably increased a lot since then.

Edited February 10, 2021 by rperez817

[tucker_bmd]

Popular youtube channel Engineering Explained Jason's take on can the grid handle many many more EVs.  He seems to think so.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfyG6FXsUU

 

[FordBuyer]

17 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Yes they did but now it’s petered out. did Hybrids need to be an either/or decision?

perhaps C-Max was a costly deviation when you consider the tens of thousands of RAV4s being sold each quarter.

IMO, Ford was ahead of the curve with GEN 1 Hybrid Escape, they just needed to hang in there with a good GEN 2.

 

It’s water under the bridge now but Ford still can’t get its shit together with hybrids.

 

As an Escape Hybrid owner, I wouldn't be that harsh. In most situations, mine runs on battery power more than 60% of the time. For example, I drove it 20 miles and started out with 562 miles to empty and ended with 566 miles to empty. It loves 55mph speed limits and lights every few miles. Then over 70% electric power. 

 

Ford has good inventory of Escape Hybrid around here and available if you want one competitively priced. And soon a plugin Escape and Corsair will be available. Now maybe it's too little too late, but it finally does look like Ford is getting its shit together. And next year comes electric pick up and Van plus Mach E already shipping. And I'm sure more is to be announced shortly.

[slemke]

On 2/9/2021 at 12:51 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

Also electrical need drops in the evening, even during the summer-the temps drop and the demand for AC lowers.

 

There are other things like going to LED lighting that will help with consumption rates-years back I knew a guy who had a small shop who had the local electric company came out and replaced all his bulbs in his store with more efficient ones to cut down on usage for free....just think of the savings if you can cut back usage in each house even 5-10% and multiply that by hundreds of houses and you'll see a decent amount of savings. 

Depends....homes with heat pumps and electric resistance heating will require more electricity in the winter evenings.  Same with cloudy winter days.  Incandescent bulbs were outlawed 3 administrations ago.  Not many of them left that get used regularly.  Add in all the electronics and smart devices that are always on.

 

The big drop off in electricity in the evening and overnight came from commercial users.

 

I could see power companies implementing more time of day and peak rate charges to get people to charge their cars when the grid has excess capacity...ie sunny spring and fall days or overnight in summer.  May not be a good time to charge in the hottest parts of summer or coldest winter days...encouraging those that can wait to charge up to wait an extra couple days for better weather.  More AI chips to manage it all.

 

 

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, FordBuyer said:

 

As an Escape Hybrid owner, I wouldn't be that harsh. In most situations, mine runs on battery power more than 60% of the time. For example, I drove it 20 miles and started out with 562 miles to empty and ended with 566 miles to empty. It loves 55mph speed limits and lights every few miles. Then over 70% electric power. 

 

Ford has good inventory of Escape Hybrid around here and available if you want one competitively priced. And soon a plugin Escape and Corsair will be available. Now maybe it's too little too late, but it finally does look like Ford is getting its shit together. And next year comes electric pick up and Van plus Mach E already shipping. And I'm sure more is to be announced shortly.

Not disrespectful of GEN 1 hybrid Escape, more that Ford didn’t persist for a bit longer, they were actually years in advance of the trend for hybrid utilities.
One of the reasons for stopping hybrid Escape was probably due to Ford Euro home base going with popular home market diesels, we still see it today - only PHEV Escape in Europe and Row, they chose diesel over hybrid version again.

[slemke]

On 2/9/2021 at 10:13 AM, akirby said:

 

I'm not sure that's entirely true.   At the time Prius and Leaf were kicking ass and I know my theory at the time was that hybrid drivers wanted everyone to know they were driving a hybrid so it made sense to go the C-Max route.   In hindsight Escape would have probably done better but given the Prius success it wasn't a terrible strategy.

 

Those resources also went to Fusion and MKZ HEVs and Energis and they did pretty well.

Having a unique hybrid wasn’t the problem, it was the execution of it.  Granted looks are objective, but the Cmax just wasn’t an attractive vehicle.  Ford needed/wanted something that could get closer to Prius mpg.  Something owners could use to virtue signal their greenness.  Couldn’t do that with a hybrid that looked like a regular compact suv.

 

the fusion/Mkz did well until mpg gate struck.

[silvrsvt]

49 minutes ago, slemke said:

Depends....homes with heat pumps and electric resistance heating will require more electricity in the winter evenings.  Same with cloudy winter days.  Incandescent bulbs were outlawed 3 administrations ago.  Not many of them left that get used regularly.  Add in all the electronics and smart devices that are always on.

 

You can still buy Incandescent bulbs (I was suprised to see them in Walmart a few years back)...the latest thing at that time was CFL bulbs (when Incandescent bulbs where "banned" that have pretty much disappeared from the market and have been replaced by LED lighting. LEDs use about 75% less power then an Incandescent bulbs vs only 35-40% less vs CFL vs Incandesent.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2014/1/1/5263826/the-incandescent-light-bulb-isnt-dead

 

Cell phone chargers actually use less power then what a landline would use...a landline is roughly 2kWh a month. A cell phone charger uses that over a year...if you completely drained and recharged it every day.

 

Almost all smart devices have power saving options on them. Only one I can think of that really doesn't is a cable box and I've heard years back they use roughly the same amount of power that a refrigerator would.

 

As for heat pumps and electric heating...they are fine for mild areas like California and south, but your not going to be able to switch over areas like the midwest or the northeast to electric heat or a heat pump because it just won't cut it. I don't see NG or CNG going away in these areas anytime soon. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by silvrsvt

[akirby]

48 minutes ago, slemke said:

Having a unique hybrid wasn’t the problem, it was the execution of it.  Granted looks are objective, but the Cmax just wasn’t an attractive vehicle.  

CMax looked a hell of a lot better than a Prius.

[rperez817]

5 minutes ago, akirby said:

CMax looked a hell of a lot better than a Prius.

 

2nd gen Ford C-Max was better looking than any "crossover" vehicle of the same era from Ford, Toyota, or any other automaker.

[slemke]

7 minutes ago, akirby said:

CMax looked a hell of a lot better than a Prius.

That’s not saying much.

[slemke]

19 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

You can still buy Incandescent bulbs (I was suprised to see them in Walmart a few years back)...the latest thing at that time was CFL bulbs (when Incandescent bulbs where "banned" that have pretty much disappeared from the market and have been replaced by LED lighting. LEDs use about 75% less power then an Incandescent bulbs vs only 35-40% less vs CFL vs Incandesent.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2014/1/1/5263826/the-incandescent-light-bulb-isnt-dead

 

Cell phone chargers actually use less power then what a landline would use...a landline is roughly 2kWh a month. A cell phone charger uses that over a year...if you completely drained and recharged it every day.

 

Almost all smart devices have power saving options on them. Only one I can think of that really doesn't is a cable box and I've heard years back they use roughly the same amount of power that a refrigerator would.

 

As for heat pumps and electric heating...they are fine for mild areas like California and south, but your not going to be able to switch over areas like the midwest or the northeast to electric heat or a heat pump because it just won't cut it. I don't see NG or CNG going away in these areas anytime soon. 

My apartments in Fargo had electric baseboard heat.  Cheap to install and with the $0.04/kWh electric rate, not too bad to operate either.  That was 20 some years ago, no idea what the winter rate is now.  NSP had a special lower rate for electric heat.  So switching over isn’t out of the question.  Not likely, though.  Government will also have a hard time convincing people to give up their gas cooktops, grills, fireplaces, patio heaters, etc.

Previous administration un-outlawed incandescent bulbs.  Surprisingly one of the types allowed were the vibration resistant variety, where LED durability is clearly superior.  The garden variety 60w bulb was the first to go.  CFL had many problems, including disposal since they contained mercury.  Anyway, my point was there isn’t that much room for LED lighting to reduce usage.  My power company is giving discounts on LED bulbs, but they use more power than the cfl and LED I already have.  My family just thinks that since we have LED lights, we can just leave them on.  So much for the big savings.

 

Chargers have gotten better and are more efficient.  But, I was thinking of all the smart switches, outlets, mesh WiFi, doorbells, cameras, etc. that are always using a tiny bit of electricity.  It adds up.

[FordBuyer]

12 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

2nd gen Ford C-Max was better looking than any "crossover" vehicle of the same era from Ford, Toyota, or any other automaker.

 

The problem with the C-Max was the intrusion on the cargo area, especially with the plugin. My Escape doesn't have that problem with better design with the battery under the rear seat and out of the way. We have no problem putting our two bikes in back and trying different bike trails. 

[lfeg]

One problem that I see with at home charging for EVs is the local distribution grid. Where I live the local distribution grid was designed and built out in the 50's when homes had 60 amp/240 V service. (30 amp on one leg 120V and 30 amp on the other leg 120 V) In the 70's and 80's when many people added whole house AC, service to the homes was upgraded one at a time to 100 amp service with larger capacity pole mounted transformers added as needed. The basic grid that exists today was that installed in the 50's (same wires, insulators, poles). Gas furnaces, ranges, etc are the norm. On hot summer days when everyone is running AC I notice quite a voltage drop when I run my air compressor and other items in the garage. Also, the 4160 line in my back yard has a more noticeable droop. Adding EV home charging to even 20% of the homes would require updated wiring and more or larger transformers. Get ready for higher electricity bills to pay for the updates, as they are long overdue.

[SoonerLS]

14 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

As for heat pumps and electric heating...they are fine for mild areas like California and south, but your not going to be able to switch over areas like the midwest or the northeast to electric heat or a heat pump because it just won't cut it. I don't see NG or CNG going away in these areas anytime soon. 

Heat pumps *suuuuuck* for heating. My house has a heat pump and a gas furnace, and I *never* use the heat pump for heating. Because it *suuuuucks* for heating.

[paintguy]

Average US households use about1,000 KWH per  month. Two car households would require an addition 300 to 400 KWH per month for charge at home. So just how much battery capacity will be needed to keep everything working? Batteries running about $100/KWH uninstalled. Not saying cannot or should not be done. Just be aware it will be expensive. If you wonder who will pay, well that will become obvious.

[SoonerLS]

14 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

You can still buy Incandescent bulbs (I was suprised to see them in Walmart a few years back)...the latest thing at that time was CFL bulbs (when Incandescent bulbs where "banned" that have pretty much disappeared from the market and have been replaced by LED lighting. LEDs use about 75% less power then an Incandescent bulbs vs only 35-40% less vs CFL vs Incandesent.

That's true. I have a drop light with an incandescent bulb in the closet with the pressure tank for my house (where the water line from the well enters the house) because the rocket surgeon who designed the house decided that it should be in an unheated external closet with an exterior-grade door that has an R factor of about -0. A 100W incandescent bulb generates enough heat to keep the lines from freezing on all but the coldest days (the last time my water line froze was one night when it got down to -4*F), so I tend to keep them around.

[silvrsvt]

24 minutes ago, SoonerLS said:

Heat pumps *suuuuuck* for heating. My house has a heat pump and a gas furnace, and I *never* use the heat pump for heating. Because it *suuuuucks* for heating.

 

Yeah my Old man worked in HVAC and said the same thing. Its fine for when it gets down to maybe 40 degrees, but below that its sucking big time. 

[paintguy]

Have converted my home to all LED or CFL lightbulbs, except for a few closets that burn 5 min per day or less. Can't say I have observed a change in use that is not masked by seasonal variations. Higher efficiency heat pump and refrigerator helped maybe 10-15%. Electric resistance hot water, even with improved insulation, not much change. Heat pump OK in milder climate house, where I have all electric. Would not use in my Midwest home. -7F is no joke.  

[Donaldo]

16 hours ago, slemke said:

Having a unique hybrid wasn’t the problem, it was the execution of it.  Granted looks are objective, but the Cmax just wasn’t an attractive vehicle.  Ford needed/wanted something that could get closer to Prius mpg.  Something owners could use to virtue signal their greenness.  Couldn’t do that with a hybrid that looked like a regular compact suv.

 

the fusion/Mkz did well until mpg gate struck.

 

Ford had the right idea with the Escape hybrid, they were very durable even in extreme use like taxis and fleet vehicles. The competition noticed.  These days the RAV4 hybrid/PHEV far outsells the Prius. Good luck finding any 302hp PHEV RAV4s on Toyota dealer lots.