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Ford Will Use VW's MEB EV Platform at OAC


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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Ford's stock price is set to rise anyway because Rivian is now preparing to go public. Based on the estimated value for Rivian, Ford's 20% stake in Rivian is worth 4 or 5 times of what Ford is trading now so the valuation doesn't make any sense. 

 

As for using MEB in North America, I figured it was only a matter of time. Ford figured it couldn't engineer the smaller size EV and still make a profit so using MEB was a smart way to go forward. I still expect Ford to use its own chassis design on bigger EVs.

 

The smaller EV going to OAC is Corsair (and probably Escape) so makes sense that they will use MEB. That leaves open Ohio as home to bigger EV as previously planned. Also opens the question of what will happen to Louisville and Chicago down the road. Those UNIFOR guys played their hand pretty well to get in on the EV first.

 

No one would disagree that Ford has changed plans numerous times in the past five years or so but 

part of that was the growing realisation that electrification was coming faster than it imagined and 

to be commercially viable, any advantage using VW's electric toolkit should be leveraged. 

 

The timing on the start of the mid sized Utilities in 2023 is interesting, that suggests the project was

actually begun around four years ago  in 2019 when Ford was already beginning discussions with VW.

I'm not suggesting that the mid sized BEV Utilities are also on MEB but perhaps it's not unreasonable to 

suggest that Ford designs the bodies but grabs the MEB skateboard in lieu of its own design?

Switching to MEB near the start of that project when the mechanical/ electrical package is developed 

would have been a master stroke in timing and leveraging massive scales of economy.

Hopefully we get some Intel soon.

 

The other side of this is use of MEB frees up Ford's people to concentrate on own design BEV F150

and the other large Utilities that presumably come via Tiguan. So yeah, feeling good that Ford seems

to have a more cohesive plan emerging  that everyone can imagine, Ford is catching up in leaps and

bounds. I think that Ford's biggest critic, Adam Jonas is about to start singing their praises.

 

 

Edited by jpd80
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21 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

Wow, this was a bombshell contained in the end of an article on BEVs. 

 

Assuming the veracity of the quotes from today's J.P. Morgan call, I consider this a big deal. Previous understanding was MEB use was limited to Europe, and Ford would have its own bespoke Gen2 EV chassis at Oakville. Obviously not the case. This also makes me wonder why this change was made: is MEB superior to what Ford had designed, was Ford 'that far' behind on EV work and had to take this route, does using MEB allow Ford to conserve capital to be better deployed for other investment (versus developing another EV chassis), or... ?

 

Full article: https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2021/02/fords-all-electric-f-150-on-track-for-2022-debut/

 

36 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

No one would disagree that Ford has changed plans numerous times in the past five years or so but 

part of that was the growing realisation that electrification was coming faster than it imagined and 

to be commercially viable, any advantage using VW's electric toolkit should be leveraged. 

 

The timing on the start of the mid sized Utilities in 2023 is interesting, that suggests the project was

actually begun around four years ago  in 2019 when Ford was already beginning discussions with VW.

I'm not suggesting that the mid sized BEV Utilities are also on MEB but perhaps it's not unreasonable to 

suggest that Ford designs the bodies but grabs the MEB skateboard in lieu of its own design?

Switching to MEB near the start of that project when the mechanical/ electrical package is developed 

would have been a master stroke in timing and leveraging massive scales of economy.

Hopefully we get some Intel soon.

 

The other side of this is use of MEB frees up Ford's people to concentrate on own design BEV F150

and the other large Utilities that presumably come via Tiguan. So yeah, feeling good that Ford seems

to have a more cohesive plan emerging  that everyone can imagine, Ford is catching up in leaps and

bounds. I think that Ford's biggest critic, Adam Jonas is about to start singing their praises.

 

 

We were told we’re building edge til 2024. Unless there is some change. We’ve never heard anything about midsize EV in Oakville in 2023. Timetable at contract was 2024-2025 to retool unless FOMOCO changed their plans again. Havent heard a damn thing about Ohio, what’s going on there? I’m still trying to figure out 5 new EVs in Oakville. 2 midsize EVs in Ohio yet they haven’t even driven a bolt to start retooling there  yet. We were told 2 door vehicle performance for door vehicles and one large CUV. All speculation at this point. Corsair only confirmed vehicle. Does that mean Escape EV or Bronco Sport EV?? I know I’m reaching but who knows. WE were told lots of the EVs we will build will be heading to Europe. 

Edited by Oacjay98
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If Ford had nothing else to work on they'd be doing a lot more of this in house.   But they're already putting big resources into the Bronco sub brand, Maverick, Mach-E, BEV F150 and Transit, AVs, etc. all while maintaining the current lineup.  When you have the opportunity to outsource some of that future work to get things done more quickly and/or better it frees up internal resources to work on things that can't easily be outsourced.

 

This is no different than using Mazda platforms for Escape, Fusion and Edge and using a Volvo platform for the D2 vehicles.  The top hats and everything else will be 100% Ford.

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18 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

 

We were told we’re building edge til 2024. Unless there is some change. We’ve never heard anything about midsize EV in Oakville in 2023. Timetable at contract was 2024-2025 to retool unless FOMOCO changed their plans again. Havent heard a damn thing about Ohio, what’s going on there? I’m still trying to figure out 5 new EVs in Oakville. 2 midsize EVs in Ohio yet they haven’t even driven a bolt to start retooling there  yet. We were told 2 door vehicle performance for door vehicles and one large CUV. All speculation at this point. Corsair only confirmed vehicle. Does that mean Escape EV or Bronco Sport EV?? I know I’m reaching but who knows. WE were told lots of the EVs we will build will be heading to Europe. 

 

Well, everything after 2025 will be EV so pick any unibody Ford or Lincoln model you can think of and it could be a candidate for OAC.

 

Ford has to replace all these vehicles in North America with EVs:

  • EcoSport ASAP
  • Escape ~2025
  • Corsair ~2025
  • Bronco Sport ~2028
  • Edge ~2024
  • Nautilus ~2024
  • Explorer ~2025
  • Aviator ~2025
  • Mustang ~2028
  • MACH E ~2028 (next gen)
  • Fusion Evos ~??? (last ICE launch in 2022 so next gen is roughly 2029)
  • Maverick ~??? (last ICE launch in 2022 so next gen is roughly 2029)
  • Transit Connect ~??? 
  • Transit ~??? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

Well, everything after 2025 will be EV so pick any unibody Ford or Lincoln model you can think of and it could be a candidate for OAC.

 

Ford has to replace all these vehicles in North America with EVs:

  • EcoSport ASAP
  • Escape ~2025
  • Corsair ~2025
  • Bronco Sport ~2028
  • Edge ~2024
  • Nautilus ~2024
  • Explorer ~2025
  • Aviator ~2025
  • Mustang ~2028
  • MACH E ~2028 (next gen)
  • Fusion Evos ~??? (last ICE launch in 2022 so next gen is roughly 2029)
  • Maverick ~??? (last ICE launch in 2022 so next gen is roughly 2029)
  • Transit Connect ~??? 
  • Transit ~??? 

 In that vein, and related to the question posted earlier in the thread about the future of plants like Louisville and Chicago, will EV plants have the potential for higher total unit output, given the lower labor usage requirements for Evs (i.e. the same number of workers producing more units of output)? Or will there remain other elements of output constraint (paint shop, etc.) that would cause existing plants to be unable to produce more units per 'footprint'? 

 

Ford have stated that they do not intend to reduce headcount among the work force, so hopefully there is a way to actually increase productivity in terms of units produced per worker at the legacy plants. That could be a big win for workers and Ford if it were to work out that way.

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1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said:

 

We were told we’re building edge til 2024. Unless there is some change. We’ve never heard anything about midsize EV in Oakville in 2023. Timetable at contract was 2024-2025 to retool unless FOMOCO changed their plans again. Havent heard a damn thing about Ohio, what’s going on there? I’m still trying to figure out 5 new EVs in Oakville. 2 midsize EVs in Ohio yet they haven’t even driven a bolt to start retooling there  yet. We were told 2 door vehicle performance for door vehicles and one large CUV. All speculation at this point. Corsair only confirmed vehicle. Does that mean Escape EV or Bronco Sport EV?? I know I’m reaching but who knows. WE were told lots of the EVs we will build will be heading to Europe. 

The BEV mid sized Utilities are slated for Avon Lake

 

With regards to your other enquiries, I’m pretty sure that there will be some plant closures way off in a the distance as Ford begins to fully transition away from ICE powered vehicles (that’s a looong way off)

Edited by jpd80
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16 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The BEV mid sized Utilities are slated for Avon Lake

 

With regards to your other enquiries, I’m pretty sure that there will be some plant closures way off in a the distance as Ford begins to fully transition away from ICE powered vehicles (that’s a looong way off)

Probably but I’m not worried about that at all I’ve been with ford long enough so I’m good whatever they do. Yes I’m aware of the Avon lake bevs just haven’t heard shit about it in terms of when they will start the project.

Edited by Oacjay98
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2 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

 In that vein, and related to the question posted earlier in the thread about the future of plants like Louisville and Chicago, will EV plants have the potential for higher total unit output, given the lower labor usage requirements for Evs (i.e. the same number of workers producing more units of output)? Or will there remain other elements of output constraint (paint shop, etc.) that would cause existing plants to be unable to produce more units per 'footprint'? 

 

Ford have stated that they do not intend to reduce headcount among the work force, so hopefully there is a way to actually increase productivity in terms of units produced per worker at the legacy plants. That could be a big win for workers and Ford if it were to work out that way.


I do t see any difference in speed or output - the only difference is the drivetrain and those are usually made offsite anyway.

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3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Well, everything after 2025 will be EV so pick any unibody Ford or Lincoln model you can think of and it could be a candidate for OAC.

 

Ford has to replace all these vehicles in North America with EVs:

  • EcoSport ASAP
  • Escape ~2025
  • Corsair ~2025
  • Bronco Sport ~2028
  • Edge ~2024
  • Nautilus ~2024
  • Explorer ~2025
  • Aviator ~2025
  • Mustang ~2028
  • MACH E ~2028 (next gen)
  • Fusion Evos ~??? (last ICE launch in 2022 so next gen is roughly 2029)
  • Maverick ~??? (last ICE launch in 2022 so next gen is roughly 2029)
  • Transit Connect ~??? 
  • Transit ~??? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very true, who knows right? 

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1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said:

Very true, who knows right? 

I would not bet on everything being EV after 2025 unless Ford wants to cede massive market share.  IMHO the automakers behind the scenes see EVs as a good part of their lineup overall, but not the he all end all many are saying.  Talk of "all electric futures" excites the greenies and gets Wall Street wet, but the market very well decide different. 

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30 minutes ago, Footballfan said:

I would not bet on everything being EV after 2025 unless Ford wants to cede massive market share.  IMHO the automakers behind the scenes see EVs as a good part of their lineup overall, but not the he all end all many are saying.  Talk of "all electric futures" excites the greenies and gets Wall Street wet, but the market very well decide different. 

I would have to agree and time will tell. The next ford I buy will be ICE I know that much. Infrastructure is not in place yet, maybe when the infrastructure increases and more and more EVs are on the road in 5-10-15 years I’ll consider it. I just hope as OAC and other plants switch to EV products they use resources from N/A and not do everything in China. Canada is resource rich and I’m sure America is as well, unless the Chinese bought up all our resources too lol.

Edited by Oacjay98
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1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said:

I just hope as OAC and other plants switch to EV products they use resources from N/A and not do everything in China. Canada is resource rich and I’m sure America is as well, unless the Chinese bought up all our resources too lol.

 

Canada is in a good position to capitalize on the ongoing revolution in the automotive industry. In addition to its natural resources, Canada also has smart people, a good supplier base, R&D in EV and AV both at universities and at businesses, and government commitments to sustainability.

 

Ontario's Minister of Economic Development, Job Creation and Trade said this when Ford announced its plans to make OAC a center for EV production. New commitment to battery-electric vehicle manufacturing in Ontario | Prime Minister of Canada (pm.gc.ca)

 

"Any region seeking a long-term future in auto manufacturing must be adding value at every stage of the supply chain, particularly in the two technologies shaping the next generation of vehicles: zero-emissions and connected and autonomous. Bolstered by strategic government partnerships, Ontario is now at the leading edge."

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The next five or six years are going to be crucial for Ford, it needs it's ICE and hybrid vehicles 

to perform financially and deliver as much profit as possible to pay for the $22 billion going 

into BEVs. In short, it can't afford screw ups and loss making areas to bleed away cash.

 

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11 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

I would have to agree and time will tell. The next ford I buy will be ICE I know that much. Infrastructure is not in place yet, maybe when the infrastructure increases and more and more EVs are on the road in 5-10-15 years I’ll consider it. I just hope as OAC and other plants switch to EV products they use resources from N/A and not do everything in China. Canada is resource rich and I’m sure America is as well, unless the Chinese bought up all our resources too lol.

Me too (though for me it will probably be a Lincoln). Lest folks forget in all the EV frenzy, owning a BEV remains impractical for a huge number of folks like me who live in places where overnight charging isn't an option.

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53 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Me too (though for me it will probably be a Lincoln). Lest folks forget in all the EV frenzy, owning a BEV remains impractical for a huge number of folks like me who live in places where overnight charging isn't an option.

 

Roughly 17% of the US Population lives in a condo or apartment. I've also seen some places adding charging to their parking lots, but that might be a pain once we start hitting more then 50% of the population having a BEV

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15 hours ago, Footballfan said:

I would not bet on everything being EV after 2025 unless Ford wants to cede massive market share.  IMHO the automakers behind the scenes see EVs as a good part of their lineup overall, but not the he all end all many are saying.  Talk of "all electric futures" excites the greenies and gets Wall Street wet, but the market very well decide different. 

 

Ford will keep current ICE in production as long as it needs to but aside from F-150 and Superduty there is no known ICE vehicle in development after 2023 for the US market. This is same pretty much for all the car companies operating in the US. 

 

Edited by bzcat
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2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Roughly 17% of the US Population lives in a condo or apartment. I've also seen some places adding charging to their parking lots, but that might be a pain once we start hitting more then 50% of the population having a BEV

 

CleanTechnica is doing a webinar on February 24 on how property managers for multifamily housing can attract new residents/tenants and retain existing ones by providing them BEV charging solutions. Webinar Registration - Zoom

 

Banner_Webinar_EVconnect_06-2.png

 

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1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

You mean post the one we're about to get?

 

Next gen 2022 Ranger rest of the world (2023 in North America) will be the last ICE Ranger.

 

So that would put the EV only next next gen around 2028 or 29 rest of the world. Logically, 2029 Ranger/Everest/Bronco program is probably part of the whatever $billion Ford is spending on EV over the next several years, along with all the other ones we already mentioned. 

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46 minutes ago, bzcat said:

 

That one will go EV too but my post was in context of what could be build at OAC and was thinking body on frame trucks may not be a good candidate for a plant that has been unibody only.

My point being that unlike the heavier, larger trucks and SUVs, the NG T6s could use a heavy duty

skateboard BEV chassis. rather than continuing with the current chassis. It'sossible that MAP could

 evolve to producing BEVs, the biggest change would be done on the chassis side of the plant up to

 the marriage point. That would neatly remove all the existing ICE based assembly steps.

 

Edited by jpd80
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9 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

Me too (though for me it will probably be a Lincoln). Lest folks forget in all the EV frenzy, owning a BEV remains impractical for a huge number of folks like me who live in places where overnight charging isn't an option.

I’m sure if they have plans this large they’re also working on charging infrastructure improvements. It’s gonna take time. Obviously I hope it all does well but I’m not ready for no EV adaptation just yet. I hope Ford executes this plan well and it doesn’t flop. ICE will still be around for at least another decade or two. 

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2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

My point being that unlike the heavier, larger trucks and SUVs, the NG T6s could use a heavy duty

skateboard BEV chassis. rather than continuing with the current chassis. It'sossible that MAP could

 evolve to producing BEVs, the biggest change would be done on the chassis side of the plant up to

 the marriage point. That would neatly remove all the existing ICE based assembly steps.

 

 

3 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

That one will go EV too but my post was in context of what could be build at OAC and was thinking body on frame trucks may not be a good candidate for a plant that has been unibody only.

Anything is possible and we will hear more from ford as what they intend to put at this OAC in the future. We re up and running this week doing 800 edge nautilus a day til the next downtime because of this microchip disaster. 

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8 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

Ford will keep current ICE in production as long as it needs to but aside from F-150 and Superduty there is no known ICE vehicle in development after 2023 for the US market. This is same pretty much for all the car companies operating in the US. 

 

In fairness, I doubt many are laying out their long term plans for vehicle development other than evs in order to appease investors.  I really don’t see the bronco as one and done.

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