FR739 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 6 hours ago, rmc523 said: Ok.... Expecting a drastic change to the profile isn't realistic, and unless they want to tack on 18 bizarre and ugly crease lines a la Chevy, there are only so many ways to change the profile. So the *only* option for the F150 was to design it to look exactly like the previous generation OR something like the (very successful) Silverado? There’s no middle ground at all? Come on, no need to be dramatic. You can style the truck differently without having a bold design like GM. Ford is fully capable of coming up with a bland design without going the GM route. To suggest otherwise is silly. But to point to that as a negative on the Fusion yet excuse it for the F150 is a bit hypocritical 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 26 minutes ago, FR739 said: .... OR something like the (very successful) Silverado? There’s no middle ground at all? Come on, no need to be dramatic. You can style the truck differently without having a bold design like GM. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 42 minutes ago, FR739 said: So the *only* option for the F150 was to design it to look exactly like the previous generation OR something like the (very successful) Silverado? There’s no middle ground at all? Come on, no need to be dramatic. You can style the truck differently without having a bold design like GM. Ford is fully capable of coming up with a bland design without going the GM route. To suggest otherwise is silly. But to point to that as a negative on the Fusion yet excuse it for the F150 is a bit hypocritical The best support for your opinion (not!) is the 43+ years of F-Series sales leadership! No one knows or understands truck buyers better than Ford and the sales record speaks for itself. While Ford's actions may not meet your requirements, Ford consistently raises the bar for the pickup market. Just when the competition thinks they've caught up, Ford raises the bar again with new features, technology, etc. and the competition runs back to the drawing board. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 And Ford shouldn't rest on their laurels either. Chevy hasn't really been real competition the last few years, but The Ram is going gang-buster and eating up Chevys lack of sales. They would be the one to watch out for... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, FR739 said: So the *only* option for the F150 was to design it to look exactly like the previous generation OR something like the (very successful) Silverado? There’s no middle ground at all? Come on, no need to be dramatic. You can style the truck differently without having a bold design like GM. Ford is fully capable of coming up with a bland design without going the GM route. To suggest otherwise is silly. But to point to that as a negative on the Fusion yet excuse it for the F150 is a bit hypocritical It’s hilarious that you think 2021 F150 is the same but the 2017 Fusion was completely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FR739 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, twintornados said: Which part are you taking issue with? 2 hours ago, ice-capades said: The best support for your opinion (not!) is the 43+ years of F-Series sales leadership! No one knows or understands truck buyers better than Ford and the sales record speaks for itself. While Ford's actions may not meet your requirements, Ford consistently raises the bar for the pickup market. Just when the competition thinks they've caught up, Ford raises the bar again with new features, technology, etc. and the competition runs back to the drawing board. I never said Ford didn’t understand truck buyers. I was equating the Fusion refresh and the F150 refresh and how some think that the Fusion sales were hampered because of its similarity to the previous model. But we see that with the F150 and it doesn’t affect sales. There’s a hypocrisy there. 27 minutes ago, ANTAUS said: And Ford shouldn't rest on their laurels either. Chevy hasn't really been real competition the last few years, but The Ram is going gang-buster and eating up Chevys lack of sales. They would be the one to watch out for... Chevy has not seen a lack of sales due to the styling of the Silverado. In fact, it’s helped GM overtake Ford in truck sales and has helped in giving GM over 6 billion in earnings. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 51 minutes ago, ANTAUS said: Chevys lack of sales. Chevrolet was the fastest growing automotive brand (full line) in the U.S. in terms of sales to real, retail customers last year. Silverado's sales success was the primary reason for this growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmartKid001 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Does anyone know what CD 764 is? Rumor says it's a mkz replacement for China and may become a global model if reacted positively but I couldn't find any detail of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, SmartKid001 said: Does anyone know what CD 764 is? Rumor says it's a mkz replacement for China and may become a global model if reacted positively but I couldn't find any detail of it. It's being kept tight-lipped, but I assume it's a Lincoln electric whitespace vehicle. It began as a China product but I believe the scope has since expanded. It's being engineered in Dearborn with some talent they very recently picked off from, um, elsewhere. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 6 hours ago, FR739 said: So the *only* option for the F150 was to design it to look exactly like the previous generation OR something like the (very successful) Silverado? There’s no middle ground at all? Come on, no need to be dramatic. You can style the truck differently without having a bold design like GM. Ford is fully capable of coming up with a bland design without going the GM route. To suggest otherwise is silly. But to point to that as a negative on the Fusion yet excuse it for the F150 is a bit hypocritical Equating the changes of the '21 F-150 to the '17 Fusion refresh is laughable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 33 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Equating the changes of the '21 F-150 to the '17 Fusion refresh is laughable. Yes sir rmc523, a more apples to apples comparison would be 2018 F-150 refresh and 2017 Fusion refresh. 2021 F-150 represents a full model changeover, even though styling is very similar to previous generation as FR739 correctly mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FR739 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 2 hours ago, rmc523 said: Equating the changes of the '21 F-150 to the '17 Fusion refresh is laughable. Thats fine you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. But in terms of styling (which is what this conversation is about) it’s not too far off. Again, never said it was a bad thing. People need to not immediately get so defensive 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FR739 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: even though styling is very similar to previous generation as FR739 correctly mentioned. Thats my entire point. Nothing more, nothing less. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, FR739 said: Thats fine you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. But in terms of styling (which is what this conversation is about) it’s not too far off. Again, never said it was a bad thing. People need to not immediately get so defensive It may be somewhat similar (I do agree to an extent, especially from the rear/the bed) but it’s nowhere near as small of an amount of change for the ‘17 Fusion. Edited March 17, 2021 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 5 hours ago, rperez817 said: Yes sir rmc523, a more apples to apples comparison would be 2018 F-150 refresh and 2017 Fusion refresh. 2021 F-150 represents a full model changeover, even though styling is very similar to previous generation as FR739 correctly mentioned. But it is still a crab apple to honey crisp comparison. The ‘18 F150 added vastly more equipment and changes. New 10 speed auto, updated Coyote, updated 2.7 ecoboost, new grill and facias. 3.5EB and 10 speed came a little early as they were in the ‘17. The 8sp auto wasn’t ready yet and the styling changes were so subtle you really had to look. The fusion styling has aged well and still looks good. But it needed some new wiz bang features to keep people interested. Fseries delivers on that time and time again. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 13 hours ago, PREMiERdrum said: It's being kept tight-lipped, but I assume it's a Lincoln electric whitespace vehicle. It began as a China product but I believe the scope has since expanded. It's being engineered in Dearborn with some talent they very recently picked off from, um, elsewhere. Is this the Lincoln mid sized BEV utility that's moving to Cuautitlan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 7 hours ago, slemke said: But it is still a crab apple to honey crisp comparison. The ‘18 F150 added vastly more equipment and changes. New 10 speed auto, updated Coyote, updated 2.7 ecoboost, new grill and facias. 3.5EB and 10 speed came a little early as they were in the ‘17. The 8sp auto wasn’t ready yet and the styling changes were so subtle you really had to look. The fusion styling has aged well and still looks good. But it needed some new wiz bang features to keep people interested. Fseries delivers on that time and time again. You forgot about the Diesel engine too. don't feel bad, so did everyone else 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 On 3/17/2021 at 2:02 PM, rmc523 said: Equating the changes of the '21 F-150 to the '17 Fusion refresh is laughable. Yep...Ford claims every body panel on the 2021 F150 is changed along with all new interior and track is 1/2 inch wider. And the Powerboost model is a game changer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 11 hours ago, jpd80 said: Is this the Lincoln mid sized BEV utility that's moving to Cuautitlan? Oh oh...Mexico is becoming a sore point with the UAW. Ford should cool it with new product for Mexico for awhile. Especially with Lincoln and its higher sticker price and profit margin. I know Cuautitlan needs product....so give it new Ecosport that has low profit margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 7 hours ago, FordBuyer said: Oh oh...Mexico is becoming a sore point with the UAW. Ford should cool it with new product for Mexico for awhile. Especially with Lincoln and its higher sticker price and profit margin. I know Cuautitlan needs product....so give it new Ecosport that has low profit margin. No, Ford needs to do what makes the most business sense. That may be appeasing the union or continuing to move products to lower cost locations. I like to see more made in USA products, but they still need to be competitive to sell and be profitable. I don’t like the extortion tactics used by the union. Crushing the hand that feeds you in the car door isn’t good for long term survival. Those new plants from foreign corporations aren’t unionized. They should work on getting new members there and not being so antagonistic to the legacy MFG. I doubt the Tesla plants and any of the upcoming BEV plants are unionized either. This will put the big three at a disadvantage that could lead to fewer and fewer UAW jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 What is surprising is the torturous route that Ford took getting own design compact and mid sized BEVs into Mexico, the VW alliance and US politics probably played a big part in that, switching CEOs probably added to confusion too. I see GM gleefully making billions each quarter and wonder why Ford seems to keep wounding itself so often... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 8 hours ago, slemke said: I don’t like the extortion tactics used by the union. How is it extortion? They’re not threatening anything, all they’re doing is voicing their displeasure to try to get the company to come to the table and hold up to their contractual agreement. Look, I have big problems with the union and the way they do things up at the top, but I have zero issue with what they did here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: How is it extortion? They’re not threatening anything, all they’re doing is voicing their displeasure to try to get the company to come to the table and hold up to their contractual agreement. Look, I have big problems with the union and the way they do things up at the top, but I have zero issue with what they did here. As I see it, no extortion whatsoever. I have to believe the 900 mil commitment to OAP was a key part of company package that sold the deal. If there was no qualifying language, Ford has lost a ton of credibility and in my mind it will be a long time before UAW ever accepts another such "incentive" to sell a company offer to the membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: How is it extortion? They’re not threatening anything, all they’re doing is voicing their displeasure to try to get the company to come to the table and hold up to their contractual agreement. Look, I have big problems with the union and the way they do things up at the top, but I have zero issue with what they did here. Switched thoughts in mid stream. This was poor public relations, but also meant to instill distrust in the company for a stronger negotiating position. Voice displeasure with management and get some facts on what is going on before dragging the company you depend on through the manure pit. This should have been kept between the union and Ford. As Bob stated, this brings up a trust issue. And both are potentially to blame here. Before pulling the product from Avon Lake (which I think was just a placeholder anyway), they should have reassured the union the investment was still coming, just that it was an undisclosed product. But, if Ford can’t trust the union bosses to keep their mouths shut on future products (6.8L v8 for example) there is no way they can tell the union the plans. The union contract is one of the most helpful sources of info for future products I have. The extortion part comes in the contract negotiations. To you it may be just good negotiations, to me, holding up a contract for benefits and job security that is beyond industry norms is extortion. The union gets the members all pissed off and convinced they deserve more of the profits or they will strike, drag the company name through the mud, etc. The union does very little publicly to convince workers they are getting a good deal, rather it is the opposite in that the workers are victims and deserve more of the profits because without them, there would be no product. It may very well be different in private meetings between the union bosses and the members, but I don’t have insight into that. Only the disgruntled loud mouths quoted in the news. Ford knows they need the union support so they give in. It ties their hands for product development. What the union bosses did at Avon lake and the product moves ties in with the strong arm tactics. Keep the union members convinced the company is evil and doesn’t deserve to make a profit...it should all go to the wokers. The union could buyout the shareholders and run the company with the Ford family if they want additional profits. Everyone should be much happier as the union will have captured maximum profit for the members and there will be no outside shareholders to please. Edited March 19, 2021 by slemke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Be under no illusion that Ford paints a lot of blue sky when it suits them but also stay silent on promoting future products that would bolster confidence in management and it's control of the company. To anyone watching, leading people to think that you're investing $900 million in a plant to seal an agreement and then dishonoring that without warning or reason shows how two faced Ford can be in these negotiations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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